So, could Hrgovic win the Rumble if we swap him in for Ali?

Those guys not being more durable is pure guesswork on your part. Just because you believe it doesn't make it objectively so. The most durable guys are generally big men by the standards of their era. So that doesn't seem to be the case.

Foremans power failed him when he came up against guys who hard to stop like Ali and Holyfield so why wouldn't that hold true in this era?

 

Fury, Joshua and Dubois are not more durable by the standards of their era. Usyk, for example, has a better chin than all of them.

Tyson was more durable than Lewis despite being 25 lbs lighter in his prime. Same era.

Lol. Ali neutralized Foreman's power with extremely good defense and lightning fast counter punching. Holyfield said Foreman was the hardest puncher he ever faced. So Foreman's "power" didn't fail him, its just his opponents had a lot of other tricks up their sleeve to neutralize his power.

 

Meaning Ali's out and Hrgo replaces him? Yes I think Hrgo could win but Foreman could possibly be the only human
that could knock Hrgo into unconciousness.

 

They might be less durable relative to their eras because guys today hit harder. Holyfield was knocked out while Marciano wasn't but I wouldn't say Holyfield was less durable he just fought in an era where guys hit a lot harder. If Marciano had to fight the guys Holyfield fought he probably has multiple kayo losses. I think Usyks is better defensively not necessarily more durable.

What makes you think Foreman hits harder than Zhang or Itauma?

 

You wanna talk about objectivity, yet you're bringing up fights Foreman had in his 40s to make your case? That’s hardly relevant to what his power would or wouldn’t have done against modern heavyweights.

And why are you conveniently leaving out guys who were objectively extremely difficult to stop? Chuvalo, Frazier, Lyle, and others. Frazier, aside from Foreman, was only stopped by Ali, and even then, it took an inhuman amount of punishment before his corner finally stopped the fight against Frazier’s wishes. Lyle was only stopped in his prime by Ali and Foreman. Those are hardly examples that support the idea that Foreman’s power simply “failed” against durable fighters.

If we're going to talk about what is objectively supported by the evidence, you can't cherry-pick the fights that fit your argument while ignoring the ones that don't.

 

Foreman hits harder than Itauma, at least partially due to the caliber of guys he stopped. Foreman stopped multiple guys who hadn't been stopped before - Frazier, Chuvalo, and Lyle. He stopped Moorer at 45. Let's see any other heavyweight stop Moorer at 45.

It isn't me thinking this. Holyfield rates Foreman as the hardest hitter he ever faced - and given he faced Lewis, Tyson, Mercer etc - that surely counts for something.

I mean Shannon Briggs was reluctant to fight fire with fire vs a nearly 50 year old Foreman. this is the same Briggs that was willing to trade punch for punch with a prime Lewis but he was hesitant doing the same thing to a almost 50 year old man.

Zhang hits hard - sure, but other than Joyce, he doesn't exactly have a stellar record of stopping high caliber fighters. Neither does Itauma. I can buy that Zhang has comparable power to Foreman - but Foreman has a lot more relentless agression than Zhang.

 

I don't think either of you actually watched Itauma-Hrgovic if you genuinely came away thinking Hrgovic has better defense than young Foreman. His defense in that fight was awful. He was getting tagged repeatedly by a visibly exhausted Itauma who was telegraphing his punches from a mile away. Moses was so tired that he was practically falling into the ropes, and he was still able to land cleanly, including that horribly sloppy right hand he threw while literally collapsing from exhaustion.

And this isn't some case of Hrgovic taking a few punches while otherwise displaying brilliant defensive work. He was routinely there to be hit. That's a pretty strange fighter to hold up as having superior defense to young Foreman.

Foreman certainly wasn't a defensive wizard, but the idea that his defense consisted solely of standing there and blocking everything with his face is a lazy caricature. Watch the Norton fight for example and actually pay attention to what George is doing defensively. He is parrying jabs, slipping hooks, ducking punches, leaning back to take the sting off shots, smothering Norton in close and using upper-body movement to make himself difficult to hit.

 

Foreman also blocked a majority of Frazier's power left hook.

 

Could is a big word. Of course he could. We've all seen bigger upsets than that would be.

 

Hrgovic knows the punches are coming in a way that 70s Foreman didn’t.

 

Imagine Foreman's power coming up short against The GOAT! One of the hardest guys to beat, let alone stop, in history.

Imagine geriatric Foreman's "power" "fail"ing him against peak Holyfield, an ATG. Who knew?

Imagine John Mugabi's power not getting him anywhere against Hagler. Mugabi mustn't have hit that hard at all.

Imagine Canelo and GGG landing their best punches against each other but not remotely looking like doing real harm. Perhaps neither really hit that hard.

What about Wilfredo Gomez vs Sanchez. Did you see any evidence of above average power? Perhaps he wasn't really a puncher.

Did Archie Moore's power come up trumps vs Charles? Three times?

Hearns vs Hagler/Leonard?

Cooney vs Holmes?

It's almost as if great (and often durable) opponents are often harder to KO than lesser fighters. Who knew?

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Agreed. You can really see that elite punch anticipation in the way Hrgovic got caught flush by a completely telegraphed right hand from an Itauma who was so exhausted he was literally on his last legs. Moses threw the punch while already stumbling toward the ropes, and immediately collapsed into them afterward despite taking absolutely no return fire.

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Serious question, did you actually watch the fight?

 

It was not me who said Hrgo has a better defence. My point is attributes. His attributes are all wrong for Young George who is manifestly a BETTER fighter. I have, though, watched and rewatched the Ituama fight and it is telling that he only took big completely clean hits when he sensed Moses was done. He certainly threw any defensive nous he had to the wind when he was going for the finish and I think he did that because he knew Moses couldn't hurt him and was there for the taking. A perfect tine for a dramatic denoument.

I don't think for one monent Hrgo is sone kind of defensive tactician but his defence on this occasion was better than many give credit for. Up till that barnstorming round he took a lot off of lots of Ituamas punches and countered with great efficency, pop and accuracy. I'd use the same 'lazy caricature' observation with regarding any suggestion that Hrgo just stood there and let Moses punch himself out on his Acme anvil chin, a caricature I did not use nor do I subscribe too. Young George could be surprisingly hard to hit and used his physicality as a crude but hugely effective defence, and one he turned to offence in a split second. My opinion is he was much, much better technically as an older fighter, but opinions differ on this...

Thanks for taking the time to post your valuable reply man, have a wonderful day, Px

 

You've certainly got it in for Fury. He was the standout of his era until Usyk came along and beat him twice. I think he'd slid a little by then too. At any rate they had an excellent first fight. Fury's also beat Wlad and other contenders.

Above all this however is that it is obvious he's a good and quite talented fighter. If you don't think his legacy and ability is way ahead of Hrgovic there's not much more to talk about.

I'd pick him waaaaay before Filip as a more difficult opponent for Foreman.

Parker has lost 4 fights in his life. Joshua was possibly at his best when he beat him, Whyte was on a fine streak and Joyce/Wardley were somewhat disappointing. Around all this he has beat some big punchers and shown the ability to get off the floor and win.

I'd certainly take him above Hrgovic. Do i think Fury or Parker would win? No, but again, I'd pitch them in before Filip. .

 

Foreman did things like make Wepner's orbital bone burst from inside out, was laying serious hurt on Chuvalo, was the only heavyweight to stop Gregorio Peralta late. Bar the endless streak of knockouts and his second career achievements (praised by Briggs and sparring partners as still an inhuman puncher l) he was just one of those heavy handed guys who hurt without needing much speed.

George was extremely well conditioned for Zaire, but it was a humid, tropical cage in which he wanted to just knock Ali out, whilst as Archie Moore said—Ali was an escape artist of a highest caliber.

Cuts get worse, orbital bones break, eyes swell badly. If Hrgovic isn't hurt to the body, or upstairs, he is not in for a good night against a puncher of Foreman caliber, unless we assume he has the same suicidally cocky approach as he did against Ali, in the exact same environment (which to be fair could wear down Hrgovic as well.)