Prime Hrgovic vs. 70s Foreman

Yeah I think he might. AJ once took bombs off of Wlad and hung in there. His chin wasn't always cardboard. He's significantly bigger than Foreman, he looks technically better and he might well hit harder too. Foreman was a natural fighter and that means a lot, but he was doing that dumb dehydration **** in the 70s which in my opinion made him worse. Moreover I can't erase from my mind Foreman's big, slow looping shots and AJ's faster straight ones. It could be that they slug it out and we discover that AJ never had that dog in him. But I think that at one time he did and that Foreman would be wishing he'd been dropped by Ron "Little" Lyle instead.

 

He looked terrible against Peralta and Chuvalo isn't in Hrgovic's league. You're talking about a guy who would fight at light heavy today and another who would fight at cruiser.

 

I think AJ ALWAYS had that junk yard dog in him, those that label him a quitter are way off the mark in my opinion.

 

Hrgovic is far more tested against huge punchers than someone like Chuvalo though.

Zhang, Itauma, and Dubois are all massive punchers and he beat two and withstood numerous bombs from Dubois before getting stopped on cuts.

Chuvalo didn't fight any big hitters outside Foreman and neither did Frazier

 

AJ was always far too hittable. He was hurt by Whyte for christs sakes- who was always slow as a turtle. He survived Wlad and while Wlad did land some big shots, Wlad was always more cautious than Foreman due to being stopped multiple times.

I don't see AJ surviving Foreman. Maybe he can drop Foreman but he is always bound to lose. AJ being hurt by Whyte and stopped by Ruiz is more than enough evidence that he struggles in this context.

 

AJ was more mobile than Foreman and more capable of doing 12. Also a size or two bigger.

 

Even if it was the only example of Chuvalo facing a big hitter (and it’s not), his ability to remain upright against Foreman after absorbing a stream of hellacious punches is high recommendation of his chin in its own.

Chuvalo also faced a puncher in Mike DeJohn who Chuvalo in fact said hit him with the hardest punch he ever felt.

Frazier might not have been your exact monster puncher but he still hit very hard and consistently so.

He broke Chuvalo’s orbital bone which, as George described it, left his eye partially hanging out.

Frazier also dropped terrifically well chinned guys like Ali and Bugner with single left hooks.

IIRC, it was also a single left hook that badly dipped Ali’s knees in round 11 of the FOTC and saw Ali skittering this way and that for a good period thereafter during that same round.

Even in Jamaica, against Foreman, Joe managed to land at least one left hook bell ringer on George which moved him and immediately gave Foreman cause to shove Frazier away.

 

There's no evidence for DeJohn being a big hitter beyond Chuvalo claiming he hit hard. That's not very compelling evidence. And Chuvalo appeared well on his way to being kayoed early by Foreman which is why the referee stopped the fight.

What does Frazier's power or lack thereof have to do with Hrgovic being far more proven against big hitters? I'm banking on Hrgovics durability being a big problem for Foreman rather than his power.

 

DeJohn was considered a very hard hitter during his day.

Of all the punches he took, including from Foreman and Frazier, Chuvalo stating that the hardest punch he took was from DeJohn was quite the accolade.

Frazier’s power obviously has to do with the fact that Chuvalo faced him and wasn’t put down. Frazier was a more than respectable hitter who Chuvalo also faced.

Against Foreman, Chuvalo was being battered in a corner and spitting blood, taking unnecessary punishment without actually buckling.

His manager Irving Ungerman climbed onto the ring apron and asked the ref to stop the fight, which ref Arthur Mercante then did.

 

Except Sonny Liston himself rated DeJohn as the second hardest puncher he'd ever faced, behind only Cleveland Williams. And it wasn't just Liston and Chuvalo saying it either—Eddie Machen and Nino Valdes also specifically commented on DeJohn's punching power.

Then you have the actual results. DeJohn scored very impressive one-round blowouts over the highly ranked Alex Miteff, who was ranked #7, and Charlie Powell. So no, the evidence isn't simply "Chuvalo said he hit hard." Multiple heavyweight contenders who actually fought him said he could punch, and his record contains some pretty emphatic evidence to back that reputation up. Pretending there's no evidence that DeJohn was a genuine puncher because you don't like one particular source is absurd. His reputation as a power puncher wasn't based on a single anecdote.

 

None of those guys supposedly praising his power were dropped or visibly hurt by him. And I've never heard reference to Valdes or Machen or Liston praising his power anywhere else. So you will need to provide a source.

Powell was kayoed eight times, multiple times by guys not renowned for their power some of whom were unranked. So it's a tough sell that stopping him proves anything.

So we are left with the Miteff stoppage which is an okay result and supposed praise by several guys he fought that he couldn't visibility hurt or drop. That's not a lot to go on.

 

"None of those guys supposedly praising his power were dropped or visibly hurt by him." This is beyond nonsensical. Since when does a fighter have to be dropped or visibly hurt for his assessment of someone's punching power to count? Neither Ali nor Cobb hit the canvas against Shavers, yet both regarded him as the hardest puncher they faced. Ray Mercer wasn't dropped by Tommy Morrison, yet he named Morrison the hardest puncher he'd ever faced. Spoon wasn't dropped by Bruno, yet he also regarded Bruno as the hardest puncher he'd faced. And, perhaps most relevant to the point, Holyfield wasn't dropped by Foreman, yet he named Foreman the hardest puncher he'd ever faced.

So this idea that the testimony of fighters who weren't dropped somehow doesn't count is completely ridiculous. A fighter doesn't need to be knocked off his feet for another fighter to legitimately recognize his punching power. In fact, you're demanding a standard that plenty of universally recognized punchers wouldn't meet.

"And I've never heard reference to Valdes or Machen or Liston praising his power anywhere else. So you will need to provide a source."

Here's Nino Valdes explicitly saying that DeJohn "hurt" him with the right hand:

https://www.newspapers.com/article/syracuse-herald-journal/205221335/

Machen also expressed respect for DeJohn's punching power:

https://www.newspapers.com/article/winston-salem-journal/205221498/

Article clipped from Atlanta Daily World - Newspapers.com™

And there is contemporary newspaper evidence from the period repeatedly establishing DeJohn's reputation as a puncher:

https://www.newspapers.com/article/scrantonian-tribune/205236460/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/nevada-state-journal/205230368/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-des-moines-register/205238459/

Again, DeJohn being regarded as a puncher isn't some obscure theory I've cobbled together from one stoppage and a couple of anecdotes. It was a well-known part of his reputation while he was actually fighting. The fact that you're apparently unfamiliar with that reputation doesn't somehow make the evidence disappear.

And Powell is another case where you're stripping away all the relevant context. Yes, he was stopped multiple times over the course of his career, but the majority of those stoppages came years after the DeJohn fight, when Powell had fallen out of the ratings and was well past his prime. You're treating every stoppage on his record as though it tells us equally much about the version of Powell DeJohn fought, which obviously isn't the case.

Furthermore, nobody knocked Powell out in the first round. DeJohn stopped a still-ranked contender in the first. So, citing later-career stoppages doesn't somehow make DeJohn's result meaningless.

So no, we're not simply "left with the Miteff stoppage." We have DeJohn's actual record, contemporary reports describing him as a puncher, opponents specifically commenting on his power, and a ranked contender stopped very early in a fight. You can argue about exactly how highly DeJohn's power should be rated, but pretending there was little or no evidence that he was a serious puncher—particularly contemporary evidence—is simply not accurate.

 

I've been waiting for this response, Swag.

Asking a PI to provide sources......I immediately thought to myself "oh, don't worry, you'll get your sources, of that I have no doubt".

I tend to avoid challenging people in areas linked to what they do for living, because they're usually rather better at it than the average person....

 

Lol, didn't want to respond to him because I've been so busy with my master's program now that the semester started, but this was a personal challenge. I had absolutely no choice.

 

Swagman PI? It does have a nice ring to it.