What? You have it backwards. Leonard didnt have the chin to withstand Terry's power and PROVED it every time Terry put him down On the other hand, whenever Ray caught Terry point blank, he simply brushed it off like a mild spring rain as if toe say "was I hit?" only ACTUAL RESULTS count, something you havent learned yet. you are asking me to disregard actual results for your results which are actually just come from your imaginings, what you wish you would have seen instead. So your argument has NO validity! But mine does Ray Leonard with no defeats in ten years. Overwhelmingly favored to win by ALL the journalists. the perfect performance in his previous bout winning 12/12 Your excuse "Leonard wasnt in his prime" is just a crutch. You would rather say "oh well, he just lost it!. We dont know when. He just lost it" rather than to admit his flaws and if he couldnt give Terry a fight, he is ALSO going to lose to Floyd, victim #17
So you think Terry has a better chin then Leonard and Terry Hits harder then Hearns and Leonard was in his prime ?
1. Mayweather beat everyone, the cream of the crop over 5 divisions over 20 years. Countless champions in their prime and some nearer the end, that were still at a very high level. And you're actually insulting those boxers he beat. If we assume the fighters you're making excuses for aren't prime. Genaro Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo, Hatton, Judah, Hatton, Marquez, Alvarez were all prime. All were the best in either a division or multiple divisions. Pacquaio if he wasn't wasn't far off because he kept winning against elite level opposition after Mayweather beat him. DLH put in close to a career best performance, while having an elite record at the weight. I'll take boxing trainers and ex pros over 'fans in this echospace'. For some reason you think the fans on this forum are knowledgable but there knowledge is solely guided by their favourites. You also have different rules for 'Prime ATG' from the past to 'Prime ATG for now'. There's a far better case Robinson and Armstrong didn't beat a prime ATG compared to Floyd. How about Pep? What ATG did Hagler beat who was the same size as him? What ATG did Hearns beat who was the same size as him? What ATG did Arguello beat? What ATG did Monzon beat that was the same size as him or bigger? Marciano? Also if Charles and Moore are the same weight as Marciano, why are you rating them higher P4P? Compare all those to Mayweather's best wins that were the same size or bigger if you want to be reasonable 2. You don't rate anyone in the last 30 years in the top 10, I'm pretty sure you don't rate anyone from the last 30 in the top 20. You probably don't have any in your top 30 from the last 30 years. Your era bias is insane as most people in the sub sector of the forum have the same bias. 3. Yes everything you said about Oscar is correct, but you skewed every negative point possible, while ignoring every positive point about him at the time. BTW if you want to know how stupid and ignorant the Classic Forum can be here. Go back 20 years or less, most of the forum used to claim Barney Ross could outjab Mayweather with his much shorter arms because Maywather didn't need to use the jab at that stage of his career because he could lead with hooks and right hands. I love classic boxing, of all ages, but this probably should be renamed the red tinted forum. The most foolish thing in this forum is nearly everyone rates Charles and Moore over Patterson, who was smaller, far better, better legacy at HW, but they downgrade him because he moved to HW as a teenager.
This is how bad this forum is that 1 of the top4 P4P boxers over the past decade and longer is disparaged this way Imagine coming to the Classic and saying 1 of the top 4 P4P boxers of the 40s and 50s was 'so bad'
Keep in mind that you’re arguing with a guy who has existed on this forum to criticize Mayweather’s opposition since Bush Jr. was President.
SRR beat Kid Gavilan, Jake LaMotta and Carmen Basillo. Henry Armstrong beat Barney Ross and Lou Ambers. Willie Pep beat Sandy Saddler (I'm aware who won their series, don't change the goalposts after you placed them). All the above were unequivocally ATGs and unquestionably prime. Marvin Hagler beat a Thomas Hearns who was much taller and rangier, who won his first world title 2 weight divisions below and last two weight divisions above Hagler, whilst weighing the same as Hagler. I agree Hagler never beat an ATG MW. Arguments can be made either way for Hearns, Arguello, Monzon and Marciano, just as they can for Mayweather. For whatever its worth, I rank Mayweather above Hagler, Hearns, Monzon, Arguello and Marciano, in my ATG p4p lists. You just reached WAY too far with SRR, Armstrong and Pep, no credible arguments can be made they never beat an ATG.
he proved it when he survived his best shots with no sweat. On the other hand, Ray could not take Terry's best. We saw this starting in round one and went downhill from there No shame, he just lost to a better fighter Not more talented, but one with a better fight plan and capable of opening up faster than he could tolerate
So your saying Norris hits harder then Hearns ? And has a better chin then Leonard even though he has been stretched out in the PRIME of his career ? And Camacho must hit harder then Norris ......because he stopped Leonard and Norris could not correct ?
McCallumsJab, First of all, all of this has to be put into context. You have jumped in between me and No Neck debating each other, where I’ve been deliberately sarcastic to him, purely based on various things that he’d said beforehand. I haven’t insulted any of the fighters he fought or beat. Marquez and Canelo weren’t in their prime. But I never said that he didn’t fight prime fighters. I said that he didn’t fight any prime ATG’s, like the calibre of Ray and his best opponents. There’s some highly knowledgeable fans on this forum. Unfortunately, there’s plenty of trolls and idiots too. Regarding what you’ve specifically written above, Greg has already covered it. I have zero bias. I also have zero issue with Floyd being in there somewhere. He was a genius. Most of my criticisms of him, are for his various out of ring actions. Things like enforced C-W’s etc. I did. However, again, it was a sarcastic response to what No Neck had said previously. There’s great, good and bad posters all throughout the forum. There’s nostalgic bias. There’s also recency bias. As above. Regarding Charles and Moore, under traditional ranking criteria, they would certainly rank ahead of Patterson on a specific all time great list. Patterson wasn’t smaller either.
I differentiate between prime and peak. For me Canelo was arguably within his prime but it wasn't his absolute zenith which was 2016-2021 IMO were the heavier weight suited him significantly more than when was lighter.
You dont have to. Kevin Howard put Ray on the deck \ Marcos Geraldo had Ray flopping around the ring. Did THEY hit harder than Hearns? Duran also had him in some trouble Yet, they did more damage So the question you should be asking yourself is, could Norris catch Leonard cleaner, harder than those three mentioned? He can and he did. Terry was brilliant as Ray continually walked in to his traps See? I told you he cant deal with fast boxers and Floyd would be no different