Why is it not held against Holmes legacy more that he was never the undisputed HW champion of boxing

When Ali returned to the ring to fight Larry, it was a real spectacle. Ali appearance-wise was the lightest he had been since Foreman six years earlier.

Of course no one knew. Muhammad was popping thyroid medicine pills like Chiklets, thinking they were diet pills and if one or two were good, then 10 or 20 a day must be better.

The narrative from all the top people was ‘Ali is a proven miracle worker, does he have it in him to shake up the world one more time?’ His profile was not tarnished and people debated ‘yeah he’s older but he’s taking this one seriously, he may be able to turn the clock back, and let‘s not forget that Holmes is his old sparring partner so he knows how to beat Larry.’

It was all an illusion, of course, the magician was believed to have otherworldly powers.

And then the fight happened. His spell was broken. No one was ready to believe his sleight of hand anymore.

Ali wanted to prove the Holmes fight was a fluke, that he still at least had something in tank but for the thyroid pills. And yes, this Berbick character was a legit contender from beating John Tate … but no one regarded Big John as a REAL heavyweight champ, and he was mentally scarred by the Weaver fight and came back too soon … so was Berbick really all that? Sure, he went the distance with Larry but all that proved was that he was durable.

Still, no one wanted to see Ali disgraced again. This was late 1981. Parkinson’s wouldn’t be diagnosed for another 3 years. Ali had passed a battery of medical tests, and even Ferdie Pacheco (who had misdiagnosed Ali with kidney problems in saying he should retire and left Ali’s camp) publicly acknowledged that it was no longer a medical decision — he accepted that Ali wasn’t in medical danger but still wished he would retire.

The public felt the same way, more or less. They didn’t want The Greatest to go on to an inevitably bad end. The division had moved on — Larry vs Cooney was coming in what would become the highest-grossing fight of its time. People wanted Ali to retire and not make us face the ugliness of boxing (that ex-champs keep coming back and end up taking beatings for relative chump change until they are completely used up and discarded).

Many forget that Joe Frazier came back and got a gift draw with unknown Jumbo Cummings just a few days before Ali-Berbeck. No one cared about either, and both fights were flops financially.

I think for the public it was ‘please don’t … I guess he’s going to do it anyway, hope he doesn’t get hurt but I don’t want to see it either way.’

 

The premise that it's okay to not fight top contenders in an attempt to prolong his reign. Plenty of guys have taken the high road and refused to do that.

 

Thank you so much for this.

A pleasure to read.

This is why I love the Classic so much.

I’m always learning.

It’s a joy to converse with great, knowledgeable fans.

 

Page was a mandatory so fighting him after Witherspoon seems like an obvious thing to do.

I'm not hammering him for not fighting guys like Tucker and Tubbs who didn't establish themselves until the very end of his reign.

If not facing Witherspoon is such a big deal why is everyone not criticizing him for not facing these guys because as you can see he isn't being criticized for not fighting them.

 

Again, right up to Spinks, he consistently fought top 10 guys.

 

Been a fairly quiet year this year with some these deep dive classic threads. Good to have this.

 

Problem with the Page fight was two-fold:

1) Don King

2) Money

Those, of course, tie together.

Don paid Larry $2.1M for the Witherspoon fight, which was presumed to be an easier fight than facing No. 1 contender Page.

Don offered $2.25M for Larry to fight Page. He thought it was worth more.

Larry’s deal with King had expired so Don had to compete on the open market. Larry fought Scott Frank for Murad Muhammad for $1.5M and Marvis Frazier for $3.1M — that’s $4.6M for two easy fights.

Not a hard business decision.

If Marvis is worth north of $3M, surely Page was worth at least $3M. But Don would not budge, so Larry took the better offer. Everyone knew he was the real heavyweight champ.

As for the King part of the equation, Larry sued the promoter in 1984 but their disputes were coming to a head in 1983. So Larry absolutely (a) did not want to fight for King at that time, and (b) almost certainly did not trust King (wisely) that he wouldn’t rig the fight for Page (a King fighter).

After Larry settled the suit with King, he did business with him on fight-to-fight basis after the Coetzee fight fell through (basically three times), costing him a year of not fighting (or earning). King had the division sewn up so it was hard find viable contenders without working with King.

This is the reality and the ‘inconvenient’ truth of how it played out.

 

Some of them were unranked and those who were ranked were often just barely in the rankings like Witherspoon and Cobb. He clearly wasn't fighting the best despite some of the guys still being ranked.

By contrast Vitali was probably the best in the division beside Lewis when they fought same with Walcott when he faced Lewis (maybe 3 behind Charles)

 

Holmes beat a lot of top contenders. He seems to be getting short shrift here.

Ken Norton was the WBC #1 contender in 1978 when he was elevated to champ. Larry beat him over 15 rounds for the title.

In 1979, Norton was the WBC #1 contender and Shavers was the WBC #2 when they fought in an eliminator on the Holmes-Ocasio undercard. Ocasio was the WBC #3. Holmes had already beaten the #1 and #2 contenders.

After Shavers beat Norton, Holmes stopped the new #1 contender Shavers to defend the title.

In 1980, Bernardo Mercado was the WBC #1 contender (for most of the year) and undefeated Leroy Jones (who had beaten Mike Weaver a year and a half earlier) was the #2 contender.

Holmes completed dominated Jones and then Larry decided to fight former champ Muhammad Ali in a mega-fight. On the undercard of Holmes-Ali, #1 rated Mercado was stopped by former champ Leon Spinks.

Later that month, Gerry Cooney was elevated to the WBC #1 contender. Leon became the #2 WBC Contender. (King pushed to have Leon rated #1 by the WBC after beating Mercado, but the WBC chose Cooney instead. The WBA rated Cooney #1, as well, after Coetzee got knocked out by Weaver.)

So, in March 1981, it looked like this:
#1 Gerry Cooney
#2 Leon Spinks
#3 Michael Dokes
#4 Marty Monroe
#5 Trevor Berbick
#6 Ken Norton
#7 Greg Page
#8 Bernardo Mercado
#9 Tex Cobb
#10 James Tillis

Regardless, in 1981, Larry fought #2 WBC contender Leon Spinks and stopped him in three. Holmes also fought Trevor Berbick (who beat former champ John Tate) and Renaldo Snipes (who decisioned WBA contender Gerrie Coetzee).

#1 Cooney signed to fight Norton in February, but the promoter got arrested, and the fight was moved to June. Cooney stopped Norton in one. Cooney's team tried to make a fight with Mike Weaver for the WBA title, but it was blocked. Then Cooney signed to fight Joe Bugner, but the fight was cancelled because Cooney said he had a bad back.

In 1982, Holmes beat #1 contender Cooney. WBC #2 contender Greg Page lost on the undercard to Trevor Berbick.

So, in September 1982, after Holmes beat #1 Cooney, the WBC ratings were:
#1 Michael Dokes
#2 Gerry Cooney
#3 Trevor Berbick
#4 Greg Page
#5 Randy Cobb
#6 Tim Witherspoon
#7 Renaldo Snipes
#8 Pinklon Thomas
#9 James Tillis
#10 Lucien Rodriquez

Dokes, also promoted by Don King, signed to fight Mike Weaver for the WBA belt in December. (King didn't want Holmes and Dokes to fight.)

Holmes had already beaten #2 Cooney, #3 Berbick, #7 Snipes. #4 Page had just lost to Berbick. #9 Tillis had just lost to #8 Thomas.

So, Holmes fought Cobb, who beat Mercado on the Holmes-Snipes undercard.

After Holmes-Cobb, in March 1983, the WBC ratings were:
#1 Page
#2 Snipes (Snipes had upset Berbick)
#3 Witherspoon
#4 Cooney
#5 Weaver
#6 Berbick
#7 Thomas
#8 Cobb
#9 Rodriquez
#10 Tillis

Holmes and #3 Witherspoon fought in May 1983, #1 Page and #2 Snipes fought an eliminator on the undercard, and Dokes-#5 Weaver fought in a WBA title fight, also on the undercard.

Holmes said he'd unify with Weaver if he beat Dokes in their rematch. (It was a draw). King wouldn't let Holmes and Dokes fight.

When Dokes was upset by Coetzee in October, Holmes spent most of the next year trying to make a unification with Coetzee. That was his priority. It never happened because the finances kept falling through.

But, along with other miscellaneous challengers, he fought the #1 contender in 1978, the #1 contender in 1979, the #2 contender in 1980, the #2 contender in 1981, the #1 contender in 1982, and the #3 contender in 1983.

And if you look at the 1983 ratings posted above, Holmes had wins over 7 of the top 10 rated fighters ... Weaver, Cooney, Berbick, Witherspoon, Snipes, Cobb and Rodriquez ... when he vacated.

Not just fights with 7 of the top 10 ... wins.

 

He had plenty of time for both the easy payday that was Frazier and his mandatory Page. Again, he went three years with only one defence against a top 5 guy. Time wasn't the issue.

And even if he had ha to choose between the two (which he didn't), you will be critisised as a champ for taking the easier option. Ngannou and Verhoeven were big paydays. Didn't make them right or protect Fury and Usyk for getting stick for them. This is of course isn't a unique standard Holmes is held to.

 

Could you please highlight the part of my post where I said that?

 

According to official ratings Mike Tyson was number 3 and he fought him in his fight immediately prior to Vitali.

Wlad had lost to Sanders by the time Lewis fought Vitali losing his ranking.

 

Good.

Let’s apply that standard to Mike Tyson.

He gave a belt away rather than fight his mandatory contender, Lennox Lewis.

(Those bodies you see littering the floor are those of posters who tripped over themselves making excuses for why it’s OK for Tyson but not for Holmes or Riddick Bowe.)

 

2.25 million seems like plenty to me. Moreover wouldn't that be a lot more money in today's terms due to inflation?

I can't find much sympathy for Holmes here. Usyk was fighting better opponents than Page at cruiserweight for a whole lot less money.

 

The choice was $3.1M to fight Marvis Frazier or $2.25M to fight Page (for a promoter he was about to sue and did not trust).

Which sounds like more to you — $3.1M or $2.25M?

Can you give me examples of Usyk fighting a No. 1 contender at cruiser for less money than he had on offer to fight a relative novice that most people didn’t rate?

And if fighting Marvis is worth $3M+, what would be fair for a fight against the No. 1 contender?