Top 10 Lightweights of All Time

Yep, he done his best work at the wrong time. He was still arguably at his peak for the Patterson fights when he won and defended the title. Maybe physically he was at his best around the late 50's and very early 60's, but he wasn't champion at that point in his career, thus doesn't have longevity at the top. And the top was when he was heavyweight champion. Thats where any fighters best work counts the most.

 

No.1 spot should almost always come down to the first three listed under.

1)Duran
2)Benny Leonard
3)Joe Gans
4)Pernell
5)Ortiz
6)Buchanan
7)Ike Williams
8)Armstrong
9)Tony Canzoneri
10)(im gonna get some major hate here but...) Oscar de la whora. Golden boy was amazing at 135.

Of course the above list is stricly for 135

 

Having a laugh at the two crazy Scots. Nice argument gents, even if it completely derailed the thread.

 

Charles is excused, simply because of the quality opponents he faced. His resume at the weight was outstanding. He beat fighters who held the title at LHW. Show me on Liston's record, excluding Patterson, what high calibre fighters he beat. Even better, show me on his record, again outwith Patterson, what world heavyweight champions he beat when he was on his road to the title or after the two Ali defeats. Thats fighters who held the title at some point before Liston faced them or they became champions after he faced them. Show me them.

I'll give you an example. And it shows my complete unbiased views. Roberto Duran happens to be my personal favourite fighter of all-time. He beat Davey Moore to win a world title at a third weight. It put him in with an exclusive bunch of fighters who had achieved the same feat. Duran also rised from the ashes of "no mas" with the title win. Davey Moore had a record of 12-0. He was a very inexperienced fighter. He did make three defenses and beat Kalule, credit for that win. But lets assume Duran's win over Moore wasn't for a title, how would you view Duran's win over Moore? I need to be perfectly honest and say it wouldn't have been anywhere near as significant.

 

Great thread, starts off as a greatest lightweights thread, ends as a greatest heavyweights thread...

As for Liston top 10 ATG heavyweight without doubt.

 

You'll notice I edited. Couple of spelling adjustments that needed corrected on the previous post.

Liston's fighting career had longevity, no question. 17 years in duration to be exact. But his longevity was in general, length of career, fighting fellow contenders, etc. His longevity at the top was brief, lasting one defense and around a year and a half in span. And outwith his short reign as champion, where is the distinction to be considered a #3 heavyweight of all-time?

My example on Duran backs up my arguement.

Quality of opponents, longevity as a fighter in general, eg; career span, and as a champion, eg; reign span, regaining titles, pulling off signifcant wins when a fighter is percieved to be past his prime. Thats what it's all about. Liston doesn't score high enough in the crucial areas.

 

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Yes, and my previous posts support this IMO. I invite anyone else to have a read back at them and analyse. I think my arguement has been put forward very well indeed. I'm not saying Liston was a bum or one of the most overrated heavyweights of all-time when it comes to how most observers view his standing regarding his placing in history.

You can clearly see how I have came to this conclusion. You just happen to disagree with it.

A young fighter walks into McGrain's gym and says "I want to be a world champion, and hold onto my title for as long as possible and beat the best during my reign. Trust me McGrain, if I lose the title I will win it back and prove I can climb the mountain again. I have been studying boxing history. It's all about beating greats and holding onto the title for as long as you can"

McGrain slaps the young fighter and says "Forget about becoming a world champion son. We shall fight for as long as we can, as long as you put in the effort. If a title shot comes along, we shall consider it. But If I'm honest, it counts as nothing really. I'd actually view you to be truely great if you just fought contenders with decent records over 95% of your career. See the poster up there, thats Sonny Liston. Won the heavyweight title, made one defense. He lost the title and challenged for it again, but lost. I rank him as the third greatest heavyweight in history"

 

:good

 

He took Sanchez to beat Arguello comfortably on another thread. He said Arguello wasn't in the same skill class. I replied with "Arguello was in the same skill class. It was just a different style of skill class".