If FOTC took place in March 1972 instead?

I think it would be the same fight, Ali didn't look ring rusty when they fought.

 

If this fight were to indeed take place one year later, instead of the initial date, then I think I would favor Ali. This would have given Muhammad time to ad a few additional matches and shake off some more rust before getting in the ring with Frazier. What's more, by 1972 Joe was begining to enter the ring at career high weights, and according to some historians, was declining by the time he faced Foreman in 1973. I think Ali takes a close decision in similar fashion to the way he did in their second fight in 1974.

 

How many YEARS of intense sparring, training and fights against top5 ranked contenders do you need to lose ring rust?!?

 

Frankly, I don't have any experience in retiring from pro boxing, sparring in the interim, then coming back and fighting top challengers to be able to answer that question.

Therfore, Why don't you tell me Chris?

Climbing out on a limb here, two fights within a four year period prior to going in the ring with the CHAMP seems a bit short. Now I realize Ali was 28 years old, in great shape, kept active during exhile and had some very good wins over Quarry and Bonavena upon his return. Neverthless, an additional year to prepare would only helped Ali. Not Frazier.

 

Come to think of it, he did look somewhat flatfooted in both the Quarry and Bonavena fights ( though its been about 15 years since I've watched either ).

 

I agree, I believe the Ali fight was the main reason for Fraziers decline and although I think he would've declined to an extent regardless, I believe the Ali fight sped it up dramatically.

 

I think the two things are related...and arguably, beating Ali in '71 was 'mission complete' for Frazier and he didn't seem to have quite the same focus and dedication.

If the fight with Ali is a further 12 months off, I think he stays focused and sharp. I don't think the Frazier of '72, in these circumstances, would've been markedly different from the Frazier of '71.

 

I've quit boxing for sustained periods of time (half a year), and when i came back i felt "rusty", but after a few weeks of intense workouts, it was gone. The idea that one needs YEARS of training and fights to lose that, to me, is hogwash.

Of course Ali's layoff was longer, but let's not forget that he'd been boxing since he was 12 non-stop and has had over 100 fights. Plus i'm not half the athlete he is. On top of that, as you said, he did do exhibitions during his layoff and was not banned from training at all. He looked in good shape during the Marciano/Ali computer "fight", which was late '69 if i remember correct.

When he came back in the ring, Quarry, consistently ranked in the top3 for years and by many viewed as one of the best contenders ever, didn't land a single punch on Ali and was stopped faster than he'd ever been before or after. Then after that, he knocked out Bonavana with left hooks, a punch he did not throw often. Was he so ring rusty that he actually improved his arsenal? Oscar, by the way, had never been stopped before or after.

Like Ali said, he dealt with Quarry and Bonavena easier than Frazier did. And that was WHILE getting rid of the ring rust.

If you want to make the argument that the 60's Ali would've beaten Frazier, fine, but no amount of "warming up" would've allowed him to beat Frazier in the 70's... assuming he'd face the same possessed Frazier as he did in '71, of course.

The question here is after 1,5 years, which is years.

As for Tyson, he looked great against McNeely and Bruno, as good as he ever did in fact. Wouldn't you say the fact that Mathis had an akward, slick, smothering style that Tyson never faced before or after, made him look worse, especially given the fact that he had no trouble looking great against Bruno and McNeely?

By the way, he still stopped Mathis in 3, and delivered a fantastic finish. He took a step back, land a ferocious uppercut, quickly followed by a left and a double right, all within a second or so time with blazing handspeed.

Here you can view it:

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i thin frazier was relentless in that fight and would have gave a prime (liston 2, cleveland williams fight) trouble however i believe if ali had not been exiled he would have beat frazier but closely like the 2nd fight