GUILALAH: My Current AT Heavy Rankings

I must ask a few questions.

Which champion do you think beats Choynski on his 7th recorded fight? I think most would lose.

Many heavyweights have struggled with cruiserweight-sized fighters. Let us insert the following names commonly seen in the top ten. Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis, Sonny Liston, and Muhammad Ali. In fact, some names I mentioned here lost to a currier weight sized fighter. My question is this.,Do the same standards of your ranking system apply to everyone, or just Jeffries?

When Jeffries skills developed as champion, he did not need 15 rounds. The main reason why Shakrey lasted the distance was because Jeffries was injured, and fighting Shareky at his best.

 

Thing is, most of those names you mention also beat fighters of similar size, or bigger. Jeffries almost exclusively fought guys who were cruiserweights or smaller, while being a legitimate heavyweight himself.

I understand that a man can only beat who is put in front of him, but those are the facts, and it's not like he simply bowled everyone over either. Corbett and Fitz in their second fights with him punished him badly before falling.
He went through hell with Sharkey in their second fight as well.

I just don't see a Lewis, Holmes, Tyson etc. having those problems with that competition.

 

Im forever changing but as it stands;

Ali - First 3 time champ and his wins over Liston, Foreman, Frazier are 3 of the best scalps by a heavyweight.

Jack Johnson - Iv gone from not thinking much of Johnson to think he is the best thing since sex with ya mates mum. he is the only pre Louis champ that should be in the top 10 as he is the the only guy to fought both the black and the white guys. He gets stick for not defending against the likes of Langford and Jeanette, but that had alot to do with the politics of the day and doesnt take away from the fact they he beat them before and they are on his record. add those guys to Burns, Flyn,Ketchel, Fitz, Old Jeffries and you have the 2nd greatest heavy of all time.

Joe Louis - Techinically brilliant, longest title reign in the history of the division, he is certainly one of the greatest fighters ever in this weight class...but not THE greatest. :bart He lacks the star power on his CV to be at the top.

Larry Holmes - Another heavy with a very long reign, did suffer because of his lack of star power in the division but that doesnt take away from his techinical ability and his dominance.

George Foreman - Techincally not as strong as many other heavys I could name, but to come back after so long and win the linear title makes him great. He also demolished Smokin Joe, who I rate very highly.

Lennox Lewis - Best heavyweight of recent times, 3 time title holder, cleaned out a division even though early on his was a very ducked man. People say his division wasnt good but thats because he was so dominant guys like Holyfield, Ruddock, Mercer, Bruno, Golota, Tyson, Tua, Rahman, Grant, Briggs and Klitschko are quality fighters. plus he avenged both losses in good style. H2H also one of the very best heavys.

Rocky Marciano - Dominant heavyweight, being undefeated gives him extra kudos, but I think he stuggles the same way louis and Holmes struggles with the lack of star names on the record. I cant put him any higher than this. Also in H2H argument I think he comes up short.

Joe Frazier - Probably has the best win from anyone on the list when beating Ali for the first time. Thats enough for him to be here.

Evander Holyfield - 4 time titllist, beat Bowe and Tyson, held Lennox to a draw, was competiting in a very good heavyweight era even though being naturaly much smaller.

Sonny Liston - H2H one of the most dangerous heavyweights ever. Noted more for his pre title fights rather than his championship fights, although demolishing Patterson isnt such a bad thing. Was unlucky that he ran into Clay, who is the GOAT.

11 - Mike Tyson, much like Liston was an animal to fight, but he didnt avenge losses and the fact that he is a wife beating, drug taking, cheatin, cannabalistic ****** does go against him. He didnt have a long reign nd didnt nothc up many good wins. But ovbiously a devastating talent.

No way should Dempsey, Tunney or Jeffries be in the top 10.

 

Some interesting placings there McGrain... :think

 

Well, Lewis was take out twice by one punch, so yes, I think a cruiser weight sized fighter with a lot of power can upset him. It would be an upset, but it could happen.

Tyson would likely roll many old timers, BUT Tyson was upset several times because he lacked heart and focus.

I do not see Holmes losing to a cruiserweight sized fighter in his prime, but he did lose the first Spinks fight.

 

Slavin nealry killed Kirain. That was a brutal read. Had that fight been held in a modern era, its an early TKO. I get the hunch Slavin vs Sullivan would have been a ring classic. Sullvian would need all his stamina, because based on the limted stuff I have read between the two, Slavin was faster and more skilled with Queensburry rules.

I have read Slavin vs Peter Jackson, and that was a war of a match too.

 

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Mike Tyson
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Larry Holmes
7. Sonny Liston
8. Jack Johnson
9. George Foreman
10. Joe Frazier
11. Harry Wills
12. Jack Dempsey
13. Evander Holyfield
14. Jim Jeffries

After this, it gets very murky imo.

 

Comparing my list with yours, it appears we have 23 of the same top 26, with the only discrepancies in inclusion being that I have Patterson, Johansson and Norton instead of your choices of Sullivan, Corbett and Jackson- something of a generation preference thing there, I suppose.

Right now, with a lot of easily-interchangeable positions, and noting that I'm not including guys who are still active and "live" and/or have a large number of active-and-"live" major opponents (guys like the Klitschkos and Tua should make this list when all is said and done), I have it:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Foreman
4. Marciano
5. Frazier
6. Holmes
7. Dempsey
8. Jeffries
9. Johnson
10. Holyfield
11. Liston
12. Tyson
13. Lewis
14. Walcott
15. Charles
16. Patterson
17. Bowe
18. Tunney
19. Schmeling
20. Langford
21. Johansson
22. Norton
23. Wills
24. Max Baer
25. Fitzsimmons
26. Jack Sharkey
27. Elmer Ray
28. Archie Moore
29. Jerry Quarry
30. Jim Corbett
31. Tim Witherspoon
32. Mike Spinks
33. Tom Sharkey
34. Joe Jeanette
35. Jimmy Young
36. Sam McVey
37. Jimmy Bivins
38. Jimmy Ellis
39. Peter Jackson
40. Ike Ibeabuchi
41. Billy Conn
42. Harold Johnson
43. Jim Braddock
44. Jess Willard
45. Primo Carnera
46. Eddie Machen
47. Roland LaStarza
48. Billy Miske
49. Buster Douglas
50. Michael Moorer

Within the top 26, I am tempted to switch Foreman with Marciano, Dempsey with Jeffries, Holyfield with Liston, Tyson with Lewis, and Patterson with Bowe, and to push Harry Wills up a little.

All-in-all, we are on a pretty similar wavelength, then. That said, I feel that you have Tunney too high, Foreman considerably too low, and that at least Patterson deserves a spot in the top 26. The Sullivan ranking is obviously much different from mine, as I don't tend to consider him a candidate for ranking among gloved champions, but if I were to do so, certainly his accomplishments were impressive enough to merit a high standing.