Who beats Ali? No hedging your bets, who do YOU pick to straight up beat him?

Apologies to Groove, as just reading over my post I realized that I did say Ali was at his "best" against Joe Frazier. I guess for me it's hard to imagine anybody, pre-exile Ali included, fighting those fights with Joe any better, if that explains my misstatement at all. How would a pre-exile Ali do against a post-exile Ali, the stronger, tougher, and smarter fighter might be a question some would entertain.

I'll only add that there's an argument to me made that if Ali would have fought in those three years that we may have seen something even more impressive. But truth is, that's why I stay away from these hypotheticals. I guess the bigger part of me just doesn't buy the arguments, since I think anything can happen on any night. That's why they fight series of threes.

Sorry for the foggy interruption fellas. Blame it on too much Jack Daniels and not enough sleep for too many days running. Carry on, if you will.

 

Of course many heavyweights could have beaten this supposedly prime Ali, the first and foremost being the supposedly depleted (but actually more skilled) Ali from the early 70's, the second being the Frazier who took him down in the FOTC and the 10th being Vit K. Yes, the TENTH. On tape the 1960's Ali looks great beating the likes of the very normal Terrell, the extremely over-rated to begin with and then on the downside Williams and the almost never-was of Patterson. Folley, Cooper, London? Are you kidding me? If this is the stuff of legend, give me a motivated Evander Holyfield to beat him. I do not believe the the 66 Ali was unbeatable, but merely someone who faced a very beatable group of fighters and left that enticing hint of the "what-could-have-been" which the sporting set ranks higher than actual achievement.

 

Joe Louis, Marciano,(PRIME FRAZIER)....who has a chance Dempsey(hook), Walcott(on a good night (hook)

 

No Liston?



I'll find out the deal one day, even if it takes decades

 

Honestly, I don't know why not Liston. For Ali, it is styles that will beat him not just great ability, which Liston possessed. An honest appraisal of Frazier shows more than a few inadequacies, but he presented Ali with all kinds of problems stylistically. Liston, a much more rounded fighter, wound up in Ali's trap twice.

Still, I think the modern giants- who are much more athletic than Terrell and display a much more rounded game than Foreman 1.0, would give Ali all kind of problems. Bowe, Lewis, WK, VK...

The more time goes on the less I am impressed with the 1960s Ali.

 

1 word, LENNOX LEWIS!

 

We're in opposite camps on this one. The more i watch just pre exile Ali the more inspired i am.

His style IMO was at it's best at his physical peak when he could utilise his god given speed and reflexes to thei fullest. When he slowed down a bit he relied much more on his god given ability to take great punches and punishment. His defensive reliance on reflex, stamina and speed of both foot and hand more so than orthodox technique always meant he would eat much more leather later career. A guy like Jones (whose physical peak lasted eons longer than Ali) also struggled badly once the reflexes and timing dropped. Unlike Ali he seemingly didn't have the same freakish durability. A Hopkins (or Moore for that matter), with great defensive technique can fight more effectively into the late career stages.

 

Thats 2 words.

 

After exile was a much more difficult era than before though. The Frazier's, Foreman's and Norton's would squash the likes of London, Cooper and Mildenberger. Cleveland Williams was another undeserving title contender, Folley years past his best despite some good recent form. Chuvalo afforded a title shot after losing two of his last three. So Ali's best year (1966 in terms of wins/activity) was also a far weaker era than what he would face the following decade.

 

I hear ya, but aside from Liston who insert your own belief ( quit, took a dive, was injured, or was Ko'd by one punch in round one ), Ali's opponents were pretty much on the weak side when he was in his prime 1964-1967 years.

 

How bad were the 'Cripples' Ali faced though?

How bad was this version of Williams? Everyone makes him out to be shot (literally) but he went 20-1-1 after Liston and the 1 loss was a SD against Terrell who he also beat

What about Patterson, supposedly a bad back but his bad back didn't stop him convincingly beating Machen and Chuvalo the year before

In terms of facing the top10 (1965 list below), Ali certainly did his job:

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Which other champion had much better opponents than Liston, Patterson, Chuvalo, Mildenberger, Terrell, Folley etc, though?

Certainly not Johnson or Dempsey. Which were the best opponents Louis beat in his prime as champion? Braddock, Schmeling, Conn (not even a HW) and a host of lesser names. Marciano? Walcott (old), Charles (aging) and Moore. Holmes? Norton (aging), Shavers, Cooney.

Chuvalo, Terrell, Mildenberger and Folley were nothing special, but they all had been contenders for quite some time. How are they worse than for example Tubbs, Thomas, Tucker and Berbick? They surely weren't as self destructive. And then you have Patterson and Liston rounding off the list, more impressive opponents than 38-year old Holmes and Spinks IMO. I really don't see why this is such a weak reign.

 

That's a 1965 list, some of those fighters lost before their chance at the title, so unless you can provide the rating for each challenger when they fought for the title (like I can) then it's mostly irrelevant. That wasn't my point anyway. I rate 1960s Ali very highly (probably #1 all-time heavy) but the class of opponent in 66/67 just wasn't of the same vintage as Frazier, Foreman and Norton and the pressure exuded by the likes of Chuvalo, Terrell, coming forward tortoise-like, is hardly the same as fighting the mollusc-like Frazier and the 'careful but constant' aggression of Norton.

In a nutshell, my post is just an antidote to this 'prime' crap, which sees Ali dancing a full 15 rounds (never happened) and some jokers pointing that he could do this against anyone at anytime. If we're going to talk prime then let's talk level of opponents, not opponents who were shells of their former selves (like Folley and Williams). Some of them desrved their title tilt, obviously Liston and Floyd were highest-calibre, but peak Ali would have had a far harder time in the 1970s and his record wouldn't have been greatly different.

 

Well forget Liston II, but Clay whupped him fair and square in the first fight.

Agreed Ali's comp was better in his comeback. I still strongly believe he was at his peak pre exile and indeed the best of him would have come during exile if he was left unhindered.

 

Perhaps not. He would probably have taken on Quarry, Bonavena, Elllis and Frazier in the years 1967-1969. Of them all would have been easy wins except Frazier. I believe he would have beaten Frazier, but that's a matter of opinion.

After that he sails through what's left and probably takes on Foreman sometime in the early 70's. This could have happened as early as 1971-1972 (considering Ali had cleaned out everyone else), and I don't think a still green Foreman would have too much chance against an Ali still on the right side of 30.

After that the only real obstacle before Holmes's rise would have been Norton. Norton could well have repeated what he did in real life, but I think Ali wins the rematch in any case.

So personally I don't think there would have been great differences. Best caase scenario (for Ali) is that he retires undefeated somewhere around 1975-1976. But Norton might well have dented that record before that, and I have feeling that Ali would have stayed on for too long in any case and eventually been dethroned by Holmes.