Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

Personally I think the imitation factor is overblown in this match. Tyson isn't going to be intimidated by Lewis, and Lewis would be intimidated either, but neither will he attack with reckless abandon either.

Tyson only knows one way to fight, so Lewis will likely not be allowed to be in a jabbing contest, it's likely to be a fight, as was the case when they actually fought. For reasons
I honestly don't understand, many use this fight to support a Tyson victory. I disagree.

It seems to me that fight was a textbook blueprint of how Lewis should fight Tyson. He wasn't intimidated, he used his size, height, and weight advantages to the maximum and most importantly he threw uppercuts when Tyson got inside, or tied him up, and actually pushed him back a few times, similar to what Foreman did against Frazier.

Basically they'd both fight the exact same way, the only question is whether Tysons speed would allow him to get inside and hit Lewis with something that would drop him. In Lewis's career it happened twice out of 47 fights, if you're a Tyson fan I don't like those odds. But it's not going to be a rerun of the Tua fight either, Tyson would go down on his shield before ever going into survival mode, as Tua obviously did.

So if Tyson can hurt Lewis early, he wins. When they mix it up there's probably just as much chance of Tyson getting hurt as Lewis, as was the case when they actually fought and Tyson admitted he was hurt in the first round.

If this happens he might become more tenative then the animal we're use to seeing, and if that happens it becomes an easy win for Lewis, as he just pepper him with the jab and either nails him coming in, or ties him up. Tyson wouldn't have an answer for this if it happened except to try and throw haymakers.

 

The uppercut is most definitely key for Lewis...I think maybe even above the jab. If he can time that one right and keep whacking Tyson with it on his way in it'll kill his momentum. Tyson's best range is that middle distance area...he could be notably quiet in the clinch, and when at long range he'd be at a reach disadvantage that would negate his 'shotgun jab' and leave him lunging in with hooks.

Lewis's whole gameplan, and indeed the gameplan of those that beat or competed against Tyson, was to repeatedly stall that engine. Like Holyfield, you don't let him get into that rhythm, you do whatever you can to keep halting it and frustrating him. That can be jabs, that can be clinches, than can be uppercuts, whatever...you simply don't let him build up a head of steam.

Even the fastest car looks bad when it's stuck in the mud.

 

Did you miss the rest of the post...? Do you understand what context is? Of course "just staring at him" isn't going to work. Particularly if you're a Mitch Green or a Pinklon Thomas. But Mike is going to be a bit more worried about Lennox to begin with. And Lennox is among the most composed and confident HW champions as there ever was.

Between the ears, Lennox Lewis is the Anti-Tyson.

...anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of Lennox Lewis would say it.

Ahhhhh, youth. So enthusiastic. So naive about the gods tacked to their bedroom walls.

I won't try to hard to topple your idol. Suffice it to say that Mike's confidence was always suspect. His psychology was always fragile. His self-image was propped up by Cus and Atlas, and Rooney. When Rooney left, Don King stepped in as did the demonic Robin Givens and her harpy mother. Mike didn't have a chance in hell. A "disciplined and determined" individual would not have fallen prey to them and would not have veered into trees literally and figuratively. What you saw early in Mike's career was a projection of stronger men. He was a physical wonder, no doubt about that, but his strength was borrowed more than it was actual. And after Rooney left, what did you have...?

See Don King pull the race card. See Mike follow the stronger man.

See Mike accept his defeat against Douglas. See King flip the script and try to steal the title back. See Mike change his mind and follow like a sheep.

See Robin Givens' tell Barbara Walters on TV that Mike is a sick maniac. See Mike sit there in silence like he was the meek who would inherit the world.

See Mike become a Christian. See Mike become Malik Abdul Aziz.

See thugs Horne and Holloway swear and rage during the Holyfield tests. See Mike do same.

Lennox resembles Holyfield in his personal strength of personality. When Holyfield locked his gaze on Tyson, Tyson couldn't return it. He was in the presence of real strength and he knew it. Lennox too represented something to Mike that Mike both feared and aspired to ...but could never reach. Mike raged at him before the fight -talking about eating his children and all that nonsense, and assaulting him at the press conference. That's textbook insecurity, count on it. All that mattered was the bout and Mike realized early what he probably already suspected in his deepest self -that he wasn't going to beat Lewis. After an initial spurt of Hail Mary's, he fought like a man who accepts his beating.

Still don't buy it...? Watch Mike's behavior during the interviews in the ring after the KO. He gently caresses Lennox's cheek. That suggests alot that I doubt you would either consider or accept.

........................
You know what? Based on your post and this rebuttal, I've changed my mind. Lennox's exploiting Mike's insecurities at the press conferences would be unnecessary.

 

First off, allow me to preface what I say here by mentioning that I am a huge Mike Tyson fan. Secondly, what I have to say won't necessarily reflect on the outcome of a potential prime-for-prime match-up between Lewis and Tyson, but will address the psychology discussion between Stonehands and josak. I agree with a lot of what Stonehands has to say - he's obviously well-read and regardless of any feelings one way or another about Mike Tyson, he's knowledgable about the man to a level that defies conventional media perception or fan-boy-ishness. I respect that.

Mike Tyson was, essentially, a child that never really grew up all the way. He was quoted as saying something along the lines of, give a teenager all the money in the world, and what do you expect? Following the Golden Child, kid-gloves treatment by Cus and Rooney he expected the same from King and his crew, and was taken advantage of by those around him who he trusted; those he perceived that could guide and mentor him as a result of his own lack of inner strength.

This is a link to Mike's psychological evaluation from 1998. I encourage any and all to read it and take note of what it says. Take note of the doctors' impressions of Mike's intelligence, but also his lack of trust in others and anger issues. While they determine he suffers from no serious mental problems, they do recommend he be given routine psychotherapy.

http://mentalhealth.about.com/gi/dy...cnnsi.com/more/boxing/1998/tysonreport/1.html

Discuss.

 

I agree. His personality was very reserved and tame. A very private individual who you could imagine would be able to take a joke as well as give one to those around him. Lewis had to put up with ridiculous claims through the media on a couple of ocassions that he was gay. These rumours surfaced because he happened to be a multi-million dollar athlete who never had girlfriend for years. The only person around for support during his fights apart from his team was his mother. Lewis didn't need to speak out and and set the record that he was straight. He knew that keeping his mouth shut was the best way to go about it. Continually defending himself through the press would have poured fuel on the fire.

His intimidation was to let his fists do the talking and keep things brief during press conferences. Very seldom was he the type to get nasty through the press building-up to fights. It was usually "he's never seen boxer like me, he's in for a shock" or "Tell Mike Tyson to either put up or shut up" Lewis wasn't a nervous person away from the ring. He was so laid back he was almost horizontal. When a camera would zoom into his locker room during undercard bouts he never looked like he had a care in the world. Sometimes he even took a nap not long after arriving at the arena.

Lewis put the 'fear of god' into his opponents with a cool and steely gaze during introductions. Watch him in the ring before the first bell sounded against Briggs. He stood still, stared across the ring to Briggs, eyes fixed without blinking once, and stayed in that posture until Cappuccino brought them together. All the way through his own intro by Buffer, I don't even recall him lifting his arms to milk the applause from the crowd. That type of tunnel vision demeanour was a rarity. Usually he would come into the ring bouncing to his reggae music geting loose, although still rippling with self confidence. His eyes never left Tyson while gazing over the cordoned security wall that split them. While Tyson elected to stare back in return, his confidence seemed false.

 

Thank you ....and this is a good post. My vehemence about Tyson's personality is easily and understandably mistaken for disdain for him. I have more pity than disdain for Tyson and remain a fan.

That report is very interesting and seems to validate my little foray into psychoanalysis. Shouten writes that Tyson was "aware that his inflated ego is a defense mechanism for his poor self esteem." What I have been asserting is exactly that -what we saw in many of his "thuggish" antics was an artificually inflated ego --almost a front at times, as hysterical as it could be. He was overcompensating for deep, deep insecurities. It was also reported that Tyson "relied on others to a greater extent than expected" and he was "naive about those relationships." We see here that Tyson's self-image is incomplete -again, he was impressionable and easily duped or manipulated by stronger/more complete personalities...

Interestingly, the doctor asserted that his mood shifts (read: his anger problem) can be helped by what is basically a cognitive-behavioral approach sans medication: intervention, structure, and clear expectations. There's a glimpse into what Cus and company did and did not do well. Cus took him off the streets, but did a poor job in cleaning those streets in him which is what he absolutely should have done (and what every parent should do) with consistent limit-setting and predictable consequences. (Teddy Atlas is getting a nod here.)

Finally, I found it interesting that the report stammered both ways on the question of Tyson's likelihood of fouling again. Hindsight is 20/20 but the fact is that Tyson's fouling got far worse post-ear biting than it was before it. I for one would have been considered his likelihood to be greater based on the extent of the foul (which is actually the crime of mayhem) and based on his rationalization for fouling (the officials were ignoring my pleas... I felt it was a streetfight... etc). Tyson had a working framework that he could be expected to use anytime he got it into his head that it was "kill or be killed" in that ring or that it was a "streetfight", or "the other guy did it first". They were remiss on that one.

 

The important issue regarding the intimidation factor is that was an advantage Tyson had over lots of guys he met. Lewis nuetralizes that so you are taking away one of the plusses Mike had in his favor going into bouts. Tyson really doesn't have all that many plusses in this matchup so subtracting or nuetralizing whatever one's he does have becomes important.

To me, it's kind of like Ali and Frazier or Norton. Ali intimidated tons of opponents before the bell rang & that was a big plus for him. But if it's nuetralized you end up negating an advantage he is always accustomed to having. Tyson would be in the same scenario and just how many plusses can he afford to give up against elite competition?

 

Further evidence of absolute blind Lewis worshiping. The most amusing part is that the main "head" doctor has the quiter of all quiters in his avator.

Second, he was DONE after prison, one more time DONE. I don't agree much with Atlas but he was right "he don't want to fight anymore". He did not look good or even close to his former self until the Holy fight. Load up with one punch, mainly headhunting, shitty stamina, bodybuilders body,squared up, bad timing , almost zero headmovement, etc, ect......he was outboxed by Mathis and backed up by the Hurricane.(those two are tomatocans by any definition)..........ANY objective follower of the sport knew right here and then that the Tyson of old was gone for good.

Now said experts use his second career as basis how he would be pretty much man handled by Lemmie.

In his heyday he never came even close to loose a fight until the Douglas fiasco., Hell, he made it look so easy that all his opponents are called bums now........by the same experts above.

One thing is for sure, even while waking up at fightnight at a whorehouse he still put up a great fight till the end against a guy who was on fire for once in a lifetime and Mike almost pulled it out.

While Douglas certainly put up a textbook performance in Tokyo but the same cannot be said about McCall or Rahman. One landed a right with closed eyes and the other one looked like pure **** or shall I say his usual until again one right ended the affair. Is there a pattern ?

Lewis will fight exactly like he did in the actual event, SAFE and supercautious protecting his achilles heel , the chin. The difference is that the much faster of foot and hand Tyson will close the gap and make Lemmie A clinch at every opportunity and stink the joint out while loosing a decision due to Tyson outhustling him or B he gets hurt or brave and decides to do a Golata/Grant/Briggs and in that scenerio even the most ardent Lewis huggers have to admit that in a shoot out he is going to get laid out...........you can take that to the bank and while he is down he ain't getting up, just ask history.

 

You'd be one to talk about quitters

Good old Tyboy, Evander is gonna punch me into oblivion again and that's gonna hurt me, so i'll just nibble his ear a bit and take the easy road out via DQ :yep

Some will be silly enough to swallow it being blind rage instead of calculated fear

:good

 

...Hey JT, how seasons change! Now I'm a "Lewis worshiper". Granted it's the suspect observation of a poster who has a poster of Tyson on the ceiling of his bedroom.

See my new avatar -dedicated to you. If you would bother to read the previous posts, you'd understand the point.

 

Out of respect for the great fighter that was Tyson, I won't have that as my avatar. In case you missed it, it was a picture of Tyson at age 10, which is about where he was emotionally when he was 20 and 30 and 38 ... which is why he would always have a hard time with any formidable HW who could punch and was completely sure of himself ....like Lennox Lewis.

 

I hate to pick Lewis but I'll have to. If there's one adage from the LewIS - TysON fight that I learned, it's don't put money on a 1 punch KO. It can happen but it's unlikely. Even if Tyson lands a hard left hook, Lewis doesn't get the credit for his heart and chin that he deserves (see round 2 of the Vitali fight).

Lewis was a smart fighter and Tyson was easy to clinch. Lewis would clinch the early rounds and put his heavy weight to tire Tyson. On the other hand, while Lewis had a good jab, it was not the best kind of jab against Tyson. Yes Lewis had a hard, ramrod jab but even more than that I'd have wanted a faster, more fluid, doubled, better timed jab like that of Douglas. I'll put money on Tyson to slip under Lewis' jab. Lewis' boxing style is no problem. My concern is that when Tyson ducks Lewis jab and tries to come inside and charge - what will happen? Lewis had fast hands and a very powerful uppercut. I think Lewis catches Tyson but now the trouble is that a young Tyson was very well conditioned. He could take a big hit and come right back. Ruddock fight showed that. Trouble is, Lewis would land his uppercuts and then quickly clinch Tyson. Rinse and repeat. I'm more concerned about Lewis' awesome speed and power along with his reach rather than his overrated jab.

Tyson's best chance is to keep mid-range fighting. He was doing that in the actual fight until his sloppy charge failed. Young Tyson will be more successful with his charges and better able to handle Lewis' powershots IMO. This allows him to maintain midrange fghting if he wants to. It's not like he charges once, gets wacked, and stops fighting. Conditioning goes a long way. So at midrange, Tyson was indeed lightning fast with his right hand lead (right hand being the bread and butter punch against Lewis). It's possible that Tyson catch Lewis with his fast hands at midrange (just see the opening of Tyson-Holy I) or less probable that Lewis gets careless. It's true that all three credible wins over Tyson (Douglas, Holy 1+2), the opponents had to take massive shots. No smarts could avoid that as Tyson had fast & powerful hands that you had to face in a fight.

It's a tough fight to predict but I'm going to go with Lewis as the more reliable fighter. If you don't agree I don't blame you all. I'm going to go with Lewis TKO 10. Early on you can tell who'll win. If Tyson keeps fighting midrange - put money on him. If he keeps doing sloppy charges and wild shots looking for a 1 punch KO - Lewis wins. Never ever bet on a 1 punch KO.

 

Indeed, how ironic hahaha.

P.S. I'm lovin' it

 

Jesus Christ, I can't believe this thread is still in progress. Isn't anyone interested in say a nice Chuck Wepner thread?

 

I agreed with everything you said except *possibly* this one. Of course Tyson is going to get dazed by Lewis' uppercut but his recovery will be a lot better if we're talking about a younger Tyson as opposed to the 2002 version. The younger Tyson was better conditioned and more active and this goes a long way in recovering from big punches. You saw Tyson's ability to recover from monster shots in the Ruddock fight. Lewis was incomparably superior fighter to Ruddock but in terms of power the two are comparable. You're spot on to use the actual fight to predict the Lewis' blueprint to victory but I wouldn't use the 2002 Tyson's conditioning as an indicator. That version wasn't active enough with 17 rounds in 5 years against fighters who weren't contenders. I still put my money on Lewis by TKO 11. Only reason Lewis doesn't KO Tyson earlier than Buster is because he's smart and will be cautious to avoid getting floored like Douglas.