Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

You're right Robbi. I watched the 5th round again and for some reason I had it in my head (having not seen the fight for a while) that there were several right hands in close proximity to each other, when there wasn't. It's definitely a one punch KO.

 

Good post! You crafted a solid argument here. I'd agree with some of it -see possibility "A" in my original post. Tyson absolutely had the skill and the power that could exploit Lennox's open windows/suspect technique.

I also agree that it is unusual for great champions to succumb to intimidation. And Tyson had a few things going for him -he was durable. His neck was a shock absorber -particularly at 20. He was also well-honed -Cus and co. strived to teach him how to fight efficiently and how to react to avoid shots and when he took shots. However, and this is key, the emphasis was on the mechanics, it was not on character. In other words, they built a machine, but they failed to consistently address what's inside. Tyson was a well-oiled machine who was the most devastating puncher in the HW division (in my estimation), but there was rot inside of that machine.

And there are fighters (including a few of his contemporaries) who were able to expose it. Holyfield and Lennox particularly. As per Bruno: Tyson was a predator at heart. Predators trample the weak and hurdle the dead -they go for sick wildebeasts. Bruno could have hit Tyson several times flush, but Tyson knew that Bruno didn't believe that he, Tyson, was prey. It wasn't in Bruno's mentality. Tyson looked for fear and when he found it, he was a better fighter, no matter what the size of the opponent.

I also happen to agree that Tyson wasn't strictly a "folder". However that is not to say that he didn't have a suspect psychology for precisely those reasons that you credit him for overcoming. Would you compare him to Marciano or Frazier in terms of character? Of course not. Here's the thing: Tyson didn't overcome his disadvantaged background. At 13 years old he was essentially given an upper middle class home and then he was streamlined by an aging trainer looking for one more legacy and unleashed on Championship Road. But he was stunted. I don't know how long he would have been able to function at the high level he did under Rooney, but it was probably only a matter of time that he fell apart from the inside.

One cannot blame Cus too much. What he and Ewald did was the stuff of saints. Cus himself was big on psychology -on the character aspect of fighting which is the most important part, make no mistake. Had he taken Tyson in 20 years earlier who knows perhaps he would have had the energy to give Mike the structure and limits that he needed. Cus was old by the time Tyson came into that gym and he couldn't be expected to be a father-figure for Tyson (who was a chronic delinquent and a project probably requiring intensive behavioral treatment)... Cus was what you'd expect an old man to be to a boy -a grandfather. And that's different.

It was no accident that Tyson's fall was so rapid after Rooney was cut lose. His technique suffered, but more importantly the source of his confidence was gone. Have you ever heard it said that "the loudest one in the room is usually the weakest"? Tyson never believed that he was invincible despite his screaming proclamations. Never! He believed in Cus and Teddy and Kevin who believed in him. His confidence was injected.

 

Wasn't really trying to change your mind on it. You viewed the evidence for yourself via a fresh take on the 5th round. :good

 

I guess it demonstrates how easy it is to hold a certain view of a fight that you haven't seen for a while. Having watched the 5th round again, I couldn't really hold with my previous point of view.

 

I'll still stand by the above as well. A few fights will conjure up instances where a very fine line lies between a fight ending via a one punch knockout or an accumulation. Depending on a certain individuals view of course, as it could be either one. Both Lewis-Rahman fights IMO were 'one punch' scenarios.

 

Tyson has to get past Lewis' reach to land his shots. Of course he can handle it but it's just harder to land. On the otherhand, Lewis could quickly execute his uppercuts from any angle (see the uppercut on Vitali) and Tyson was a sucker for uppercuts. My point is it is easier for Lewis to land his shots than it is for Tyson. Even in his prime Tyson would throw wild shots (see Tucker fight) and a fast, long reaching man like Lewis would counter and make him pay.

Round 1 in Lewis-Tyson was a tie for me. Lewis landed the meaningful punches.

I never said jab & clinch is all it takes to beat Tyson. In fact, I explicitly said that Lewis' jab would do little against Tyson (at least in the early rounds).

Sadly, you're last point is what I'm interested in. Tyson did not take advantage of his awesome body punching ability when he needed it the most. Round 3 in Douglas Tyson lands a left to the body and has Douglas slowed down. Round 5 against Holy Tyson starts throwing body punches and wins the round. Too bad this clown couldn't *consistently* keep that up. For the life of me I can't figure out why he chose to avoid such a successful technique. If he did that, he'd have beaten Douglas and had a better chance against Holyfield. Since Tyson had never demonstrated consistent body punching (especially when he's needed it and been most successful with it), I can't count on him to do it to Lewis. It is true that Tyson was very easy to clinch.

There are a lot of things about Tyson you just can't explain. People underestimate his strength on the basis that he was always pushed back (which he was). Peter McNeeley pushed hm back. Was this because McNeeley was a stronger man? Hell no. Tyson just rarely resisted pushing back (the only exception I recall is against the strong Razor Ruddock). Another thing is that when Tyson was clinched (easily), instead of doing anything, he just held on like a sleepy baby and looked at the referee to separate (Mills lane would often yell back and say you're hands are free - punch out!).

Believe me, I'm a big Tyson fan myself. I don't believe in revisionism. Lewis was the more consistent and reliable Tyson. Tyson the more exciting and charismatic.

I also think people make too much of the mental midget thing. Strangely, as true as it was, it didn't have such a presence in the ring. Tyson was a brute who could take pain and come right back. You could stand up to him and he'd punch you down like a Champion. His only flaw was that if you could outmaneuver him (very hard to do - only Douglas & Holy did it in so many fights, I'm discounting Lewis fight) then he could be frustrated. Otherwise he was a great champion.

But I gotta go with Lewis if money is to be put on the table.

 

For me, the key moment in the actual Lewis-Tyson fight was at 2:41 of the first round. Tyson comes forward, Lewis backs up, lands a grazing uppercut, Tyson thinks he's safe, but Lewis shoves him off and mauls him with hard shots, which produced this beautiful photo:

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I thought that first round was a draw, some scored it for Tyson, but in any case, it would've been winning the battle but losing the war. Lewis went confident to his corner, while Tyson was didn't like what was going on.


By the way, it's nitpicking, but Bruno wasn't the first to stun Tyson. Tucker did it with a left uppercut early in the first round and although i'm going by distant memory (for good reason) here, i think Smith stunned Tyson in the closing moment of the 12th round with a big right hand. I'm not sure about the severity of the latter, but he recovered pretty quickly from the Tucker uppercut.

 

ChrisPontius. Before the brief 'scene of terror' between them both along the ropes sparked off that you mentioned in your last post, watch the right uppercut that Lewis just misses with when he's backing up as Tyson advances on him, trying to get inside. Thats just prior to what you described.

Tyson would have done well to take that punch. I'm sure it would have at least buckled him heavily to the core of his boots. Lewis was fully committed with it.

 

It's not that one you mentioned above, I think. The uppercut I'm talking about in my last post misses altogther. If there was any contact at all, it was ciggarette paper type of contact.

 

I'm not sure how to interpret your observation because it raises questions that are tough to predict. However, just like you I also found that to be the most telling in the actual fight for what would happen in a prime for prime. Would the younger, faster Tyson actually caught a backing up Lewis? I don't know. On the other hand, I will go as far as to say that you wouldn't see that beautiful photo if it was a younger Tyson in the same situation i.e. getting wacked with thunderous Lewis uppercuts. I've said this many times and I can't emphasize it enough: conditioning goes a long, long way.

Frankly, I think too much is made about Tyson being stunned by Smith, Tucker, Bruno, etc. Tyson recovered very well from all of those punches. He was stunned at best and they were all terrific shots. If anything, those moments are a testament of Tyson's durability and ability to recover. A testament of his excellent conditioning. We all talk about how Tyson has such a unreliable mentality or a record against greats or whatever - but one thing that he has an excellent, consistent track record, is being able to take a good shot AND recovering from it quickly. His physical recuperative powers are grossly underestimated and confused for strategical recuperation for which he was poor. He could never devise strategy to turn around things when getting OUTBOXED. But this is not to be confused with getting hurt and unable to recover. It's just if you're Holy & Douglas who keep doing it punch after punch again and again - the man is only human. In fairness, Lewis may be different from those guys not because he was a bigger puncher (that's irrelevant as they are all in comparable power, especially Ruddock and Lewis). Lewis was a very good combination puncher. It's one thing to recover from a single hard punch it's another to recover from a 3 punch combination. However, Tyson did show that against Douglas' heavy 4 punch combos for a good portion of the fight until the bitter end.

I'm glad you brought up this point and photo because I feel diametrically opposite and this is an important aspect to consider for someone who is putting money on Tyson.

 

Maybe a poorly conditioned 2002 inactive Mike Tyson (17 rounds / 5 years). Not a younger version. Watch the Ruddock fights. There are times when Ruddock snaps Tyson's head back. Lands punches resembling the terror Lewis unleashed. But Ruddock's shots don't *LOOK* as impressive because they are against a much better Tyson. Tyson made Ruddock look like an OK puncher and the old version against Danny Williams made Williams look like Goliath. Both instances are irrelevant to one another and the same is true for your point here and a prime for prime match. By the way, wasn't the Williams fight removed from the Lewis fight by 1 fight in between (Etienne)?

 

Are you a Tyson fan? Because you're right on the defensive after I said that he might have been a gonner had Lewis landed that uppercut or perhaps buckled him with it. Your response was to go back in time and bring a fresher Tyson into your post. We'll never know would have happened had it landed on the 2002 Tyson or the 1991 version. Logically speaking, yes a younger Tyson probably would have absorbed the punch better had it landed.

I've simply responded to ChrisPontius' post, soley on that particular fight. And that fight happened in 2002 when Tyson was well past his sell-by-date.

 

regrettably i am.

rofl no ****

well that's the best we can do, right? :smoke

sorry i thought you were trying to make that a point for how things would appear in the fight that this thread is describing. in that case i agree with you wholeheartedly.

btw - not sure if defensive would be an appropriate description. i'd say considerate! i still pick lewis.

believe it or not, i hate, hate hate excuses for the douglas & holy fights. come on - he lost to the better men in those nights! that's the kind of "defensive" that i try to avoid.

 

Aside from the pretty good wit at my expense that finished it, this post is a tomato can.

 

No problem my man. It looks like you have followed things and went off the rails like a drunken poster. I've done it myself a few times. :good

I was being sarcastic asking if you were a fan. I can spot Tyson fans as quickly as a black man, on a bright sunny day, wearing a pink leather suit.