Would Sonny Liston rule the HW division now?

Hell yes. Liston would have KO'd Wlad, and his jab would have destroyed Quitali's face.

 

In the end it is speculation, but i think there are far too strong reasons for the first fight not to be a fix, among others:

-On film, it is clear that Liston is trying his best to knock out Ali. He throws massive left hooks, some of the hardest he ever threw, that barely miss, and in some cases land. Now you have to remember, that at this point, Ali was nearly knocked out by the small-hitting-in-comparison-'enry Cooper, and knocked down by Banks. No one thought he'd take those huge left hooks without consequence - but he did. If your life depends on you taking a dive, then why take this HUGE risk of knocking him out for 6 rounds?

-By quitting between rounds, you're not sure of the result being TKO6 or TKO7; again, VERY risky if your life depends on the fix (and you can be sure of that given that it's the mob).

-Liston was seen as invincible and expected to reign for years. So why cash out just as (or actually: before) the big cash is starting to flow? Without hindsight knowlegde, and that's what they're judging on, that's the most stupid thing to do.

-If they were trying to lose, then why blind his eyes? I don't believe the "it could've been a normal ointment that was caught on his gloves" stuff for a moment. In all the fights i've seen, i can't think of a single instance where that happened. It's pretty clear foul play was going on.

-If he was trying to lose, why did he go after Clay so hard when the latter was blinded? Again, at the time he was not seen as a durable fighter, so why take such a huge risk?

-Why quit after the initial onslaught didn't work, the desperation attack after him being blind didn't work, while he was cut and bruised himself? Sounds like a very realistic and fitting convenience of events to me. Trying to take him out with huge punches, then blinding him and again trying to take him out, followed by still not being able to touch him, yet being tired and cut, and then saying "oh wait, it was a fix, i'm going to take a gamble by quitting between rounds now, while looking like a beaten man" doesn't sound very likely to me.

-Liston himself admitted that he was scared of Ali. He said something along the lines of: "you don't know what a psychopath is gonna do next"; he genuinely believed Ali was crazy.


As for Liston drinking heavily before the Clay fight - whose to say he didn't do that before? I've read several articles on his drinking habits and it didn't start in 1964. He probably wasn't as prepared for Ali as he should've been, but then again, that's his own fault. Klitschko gassed way too fast against Brewster because he did too many weights and never sparred more than 4 rounds. Like Liston, it's his own fault. I do know one thing though: no amount of training would've given Liston the speed to deal with Ali. The only difference would be that he lasts the difference (if he holds up mentally) and continues to take the beating he was about to get.

 

That wasn't the point. The point was that size isn't everything and it was a response to the "little guys" comment.

"Mediocre" is relative. Those "little guys" that Liston beat may have advanced further but for Liston. I think that you may be far too certain that Wlad and Vitali aren't mediocre themselves but for the current state of the division.

Remember also that both of your giants got stopped by men who were quite outsized... and mediocre.

You continue to woefully underestimate Liston.

You misquoted me. I didn't say that "DeJohn" had a chin that makes Klitschko's look like a potato chip... I said "these two guys have chins that make both Klitschko's chins look like a potato chip" -which if you read the previous sentences means Chuvalo and Liston! You can count on this: if DeJohn did what others did and drop a heavy one on either chin, Wlad and Vitali would not be vertical.

 

This is a myth perpetuated by Angelo Dundee. Remember the story you enjoyed about Liston and Dick the Bruiser outside of the Thunderbird? Do you remember what Liston did to Clay inside the Thunderbird? It was before the first fight and it proved that Liston was not in the least afraid of the kid. But it also a major reason for Liston not to train hard...

 

These are not stellar wins, but in each decade there are approx. 10-15 good boxers. The rest are just journeymen and tomato cans.

And one cannot claim that size somehow doesn't matter and then bring up Valuev as example who has a record of 50-1.

 

Yes 'one' can on the grounds a record can be misleading and anybody who knows anything about boxing and has seen Valuev knows he's garbage.

Do you understand?

 

OK, name other heavyweights with a ratio of 50:1.

I know that he has a lot of bums on his record (he seems to be overprotected) BUT SO DO OTHERS TOO.

Lennox is one of the seldom cases that has NOT a lot of bums on his record.

You simply cannot bring up Valuev as an example of "Size doesn't matter".

 

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In what way? You don't understand boxing that much, do you? Wlad boxed Sultan like he was easily boxing his ears off... and Sultan didn't make a fight of it. How do you blame Wlad, for the fact that Sultan simply leaned down, back, and away... and refused to engage? Have you ever seen Sultan fight a tall fighter before that fight? If you have... you would know that he does this as a trap. When the taller fighter tries to wade in on him, and they basically have to drape themselves on top of him to land big punches because he is leaned down and back, so far away... then, after they fall for the trap, he fires off huge counters and does all of his best work. Now... Wlad isn't stupid enough to drape himself overtop of Sultan, just so he can eat counters all night long while he is off balance and out of position. Not every fight is going to be fireworks, and not every fight is going to be an amazing performance. However, if someone is to blame for that fight being boring, it's Sultan... as he is the person who was clearly being dominated and it was on him to make a fight out of it to turn the tables... which he didn't do. Had Sultan brought the fight to Wlad, Wlad would have knocked him out.

I think that we can let Wlad slide on that ONE fight. It's hilarious how since that fight, and only that fight... people have now started acting like Wlad is such a boring fighter. I mean... because he has actually had TWO fights go the distance in the last 8 years. All because of one boring fight in which he completely dominated an undefeated WBO Champion in a unification fight, but didn't knock him out. Now, people actually pretend that it is boring, of that "Wlad fights scared", because he starts off with a solid jab, dismantles his opponents... and then takes them out. Just amazing... as if that isn't what a master boxer is supposed to do.