Would Sonny Liston rule the HW division now?

Widdow Maker actually makes a pretty good point in regards to Wlad's fighting style, he establishes his legendary jab early, which was a staple of Lewis offense during his reign as champ from the mid 90's to the early 2000's, which was implemented by Emanuel Steward, which kept his oppenents at a distance enough to land the straight right when the opening was there.

As much as I criticize Wlad, I also believe he has some of the greatest offense tools ever seen for a man his size, but at times seems reluctant to use them, for fear of putting himself in danger, something we seen him do against Sultan. I guess I just didnt understand why Wlad didnt finish his man off when he had him hurt against the ropes, and almost had him down. It's like he didnt care, that it was his big chance to prove the doubters (Mostly American viewers) wrong, by knocking his man out on the big stage or at least giving an exciting fight to the world/American public, instead his performance gave fight fans ammunition to talk down about the Heavyweight division and it's top dog.

 

Do you know how many times Lewis never finished his opponents? Tyson didn't finish his? Ali? Not every fight ends in a knockout. Wlad was fighting someone who has not only never been stopped... he was never even beat. Add that to the fact that the man played defense all night long and took zero chances... exactly what did you expect form a master boxer like Wlad? For him to just turn into a wild brawler because Sultan wasn't making it fun for the fans? It's boxing, and not every style match-up is going to create fireworks. It seems like only most of the people on here criticize that performance so much, to be honest. Every casual fan that I know just considered it a dominant win and moved on. It isn't as if they have never seen Wlad knock somebody out.

 

He is good enough to win 50 times.

Come on, this disdain for modern fighters is too much.

Yes I agree, but one cannot claim that size doesn't matter and then bring up Valuev.

I still challenge anybody to come up with a fighter who has fought 50+ REAL HEAVYWEIGHT fights (200+ lbs) (actually Valuev has 48 wins 200+) and has a ratio of AROUND 50:1.

EVEN IF IT'S BUMS.

Come on, can't be that hard, can it?

I checked boxing records, and there is only Brian Nielsen, Wlad Klitschko, Foreman, Joe Louis, Marciano, Eric Esch and.... Valuev.

If you delete all the cruiserfights (below 200) then ONLY KLITSCHKO and VALUEV and *cough* Eric Esch stay and maybe Adilson Rodriguez (62:7) and Foreman (60:5). Marciano was a "cruiser formerly known as heavyweight" thus had only 12 fights 200+. Of these 12 fights only 2 were not bums (Louis and Cockell). Thus if someone is bitching about Valuev, check Marciano first.

AND THAT'S IT.

Give respect where respect is due, especially since Valuev _HAS_ some decent fighters on his resumee.

 

I hear what your saying Widdow, if you remember back in 97' when Lewis made McCall quit and have a mental breakdown in the ring, many people criticized Lewis, saying he doesnt have the killer instinct, because if you watch that fight closely, Lewis had a man infront of him with his hands down and looking away at times during that fight, Lewis chose to box him and not go in for the kill.

The only thing I will say is, Lewis didnt mind going punch for punch against his oppenents, something Wlad has never done as champ. Lewis had slugfests with big hitters like Mercer, Marovic(Spell Check), Briggs, and his last fight against Vitali, and won against all 4 of them. I really doubt Wlad could survive those type of fights, if he threw caution to the wind and chose to exchange with the bigger hitters of the division, I'm pretty sure Sam Peter would of knocked him out back in 05 if he would went punch for punch with him.

 

I honestly don't care about your personal opinions about me. Thanks though. It's funny how I can find common ground with even self proclaimed Wlad haters like Fighting Weight... yet you act like I am such a crazy rabid fan. I simply speak the truth. I don't live in the fantasy land where I pretend like every great fighter from the past is this unstoppable mythical figure, and would kill everyone today. That simply isn't me. I live in reality. All you have to do is look at the actual FACTS about what Liston weighed when he was considered in his prime. Sorry.... in some of his prime fights, he was at 212 1/2.... I guess that I was really way off the mark when I was saying 210 (which he also weighed before).:roll:

I apologize if I am not into the "let's change Liston's dimensions to fit our generation" game. It's stupid. Liston was a great fighter in his era, leave it at that. I simply get tired of the horrible disrespect thrown at all of todays fighters by all of you guys who live on fantasy island, and refuse to deal with reality.

Sonny Liston at his best... even according to yourself was 6' tall, 212 1/2 pounds. That is downright TINY in todays heavyweight division. He also generally fought against opponents who would either be cruiserweights today, or would also be tiny heavyweights. It was simply a different era, and that doesn't take away from what Liston is... because that was HIS era, and he was great in it. However, don't try and take away from what heavyweights today are either... just because you have such an extreme bias.

You don't see me making threads talking about how Wlad would have dominated everyone in that era do you? Ever? Nope... so stop acting like I am some crazy fan. I let the past be the past, and I live in the here and now. However, I will give people a dose of reality every time that they try and bash todays fighters by talking about how they would be dominated by certain people from the past. It's pathetic.

 

So ...well....said :|

 

Around and around you go.

If you have read through my posts... I mentioned MUCH more than just size. However, size seems to be what YOU guys are focusing on... so it keeps back around to height and weight. Liston's height and weight aren't his only problem... it is his height and weight... coupled with his style. It simply doesn't suit well against the top fighters in the division today, which obviously would be the Klitschkos. Now, if Liston was 6' 213 pounds, and lightning fast, quick feet, amazing defense, and movement... then he would have a much better shot. The point is that he was considered BIG in his era... and he would be considered TINY now. The things that he used to win by, which were his sheer strength, size, and power wouldn't be so effective today. He had incredibly slow hands, slow feet, and was there to hit. His plodding style would be absolute disaster for him. That little guy isn't going to come into the ring, bully around someone who outweights him by about 35 pounds, punch upwards about 7 inches, and be successful. Wlad has much faster hands, faster feet, and a big size advantage. Exactly how is Liston going to close that distance? He wouldn't be able to.

You keep talking about me saying that Liston weighed 205-210 as if I was lying. He weighed 213 or lower in 34 of his 54 fights. Explain to me how I was making **** up? He weighed 210 or lower, many times even lower than 205 in over 20 of those fights. I am not making **** up, I am going by the facts. You are trying to use examples of him when he was considered past his prime, and not in great shape as his prime weight. You are making **** up, not me. Even when he was older, his second to last fight when he was completely destroyed by a right hand from the 199 pound Martin, he was only weighing 219 pounds. That was when he was 37 years old at that point. Obviously, when his body was conditioned best, he was 213 or lower. Comparing Liston to Tyson is absolutely pointless. Start another thread for that nonsense, because they aren't ANYTHING alike inside the ring... maybe outside. Tyson built his career on blistering speed and explosiveness. He also carried serious power, which was really amplified by his amazing handspeed. He also used amazing head movement in his prime, which Sonny Liston sure as hell didn't. Two completely different fighters, so trying to have Liston piggy back on Mike Tyson's success isn't going to get you very far. Especially considering that even Tyson struggled against taller fighters... even ones that weren't anywhere in either Klitschko's league.

Now, I don't know how you want to try and pull some sort of trump card on me, as if you are a more respected member of this board or something. Tooting your own horn about doing well in "Best poster" threads. I don't post on here very often anymore, but ask around. I was actually voted best poster on ESB for 2004, and 2005.... back when we actually had serious threads about the subject once a year and everyone would vote. I was also voted in as one of only six ESB members in the history of his forum to the ESB Hall of Fame by our fellow members. A lot of people might not know me as well anymore, that's simply because I own a business now and don't have as much free time as I used to. Although, I give myself some time off like now, and I come in and post more in spurts. So, enough of the "I'm a well respected poster and you are a rabid fan" bull****, because you are making yourself look pathetic. I come on here to talk about boxing, and I would put my boxing knowledge up against anyone's. Of course, that doesn't mean that I know more about everything than everyone else, because I know that isn't the truth. However, I know a lot about EVERYTHING that I choose to discuss, because I don't argue about things if I don't know what I am talking about. If you don't agree with me, fine... then move the **** on. Don't try and tear down my character just because I don't agree with you.

 

He was nearly 40 years old at the time.

 

Well said, and he deserved it.
BTW, how the hell big is Dave Haye?
I heard he is 6'1 and normally 200 lbs.
These guys really exaggerate alot.

 

Haye looked shorter than expected vs Barrett imo. They're both listed at 6'3" but that looked a bit generous to Haye.

...Liston was always listed at 6' 0 1/2". Short neck. He looked like a shorter version of a peak Foreman.

 

I think that what Knn means to say is this:

Valuev is proof that size is one of the most important attributes there is, as size is the only attribute that he possesses. Valuev has no talent whatsoever, no awe-inspiring power, no ring generalship, no speed, nothing. The only reason that he has been relatively successful is his size.

Of course size isn't everything, but neither is speed, talent, or any other attribute. But strong attributes can make up for weak points. Roy Jones had no "defense" in the traditional sense of the word, but his speed and reflexes made up for it, which was why we only found out about his relatively weak chin when his speed had gone.