Would Sonny Liston rule the HW division now?

Listons mob connections clouded an otherwise good career. Without having to take dives he would fare better now, i agree

 

:nono He was 37 by most estimations. Liston never knew his real birth date but after his death it was revealed that he was 6 years older than he had thought.

 

Depends on who you ask. I read once that his wife said he was nearly six years older. In his biography it says he was born 1929 not 1932 which would have made him 34. Howard Cossell said he was 35. However old he was, it was a HARD 34 or 35.

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Charles "Sonny" Liston Biography (1932-1971)



Boxer. Born May 8, 1932 (there is some uncertainty about his year of birth—sources range mostly from 1929 to 1932), in St Francis County, Arkansas. The son of tenant farmer Tobey Liston and his second wife, Helen, Liston was the 24th of his father's 25 children. Along with his many siblings, Liston grew up working in the local cotton fields. His father was an abusive alcoholic, and Liston left at age 13 to live with an aunt in St. Louis, Missouri.
In St. Louis, Liston quickly encountered problems with the local police. At the age of 16 (over six feet tall and weighing 200 pounds), Liston became a menacing presence in his neighborhood, occasionally working as a strike-breaking labor goon. He was arrested more than 20 times. In 1950, he was convicted of two counts of larceny and two counts of first-degree robbery; he spent more than two years in the Missouri State penitentiary in Jefferson City. While Liston was incarcerated, prison athletic director Father Alois Stevens introduced him to the sport of boxing.
Paroled in 1952, Liston quickly captured the local Golden Gloves championship. He became a professional fighter on September 2, 1953, when he knocked out Don Smith in a single round in St. Louis. Auspiciously, the massive man known as "The Bear" then won his first nine fights before dropping an eight-round decision to Marty Marshall. Liston's career was interrupted for nine months beginning in December 1956, when he was sent to the St. Louis workhouse for assaulting a policeman and stealing the officer's gun. After completing his term, Liston relocated to Philadelphia, where his career quickly flourished again.
Liston won 26 consecutive bouts and moved inexorably toward the heavyweight championship. Known for his scowling at opponents, he combined an intimidating ring presence with awesome power. His heavyweight-title-winning victory on September 25, 1962 was indicative of his powerful style. After a mere two minutes, he knocked out Floyd Patterson, which marked the first time in history that a reigning heavyweight champion was counted out in the first round. As the top fighter in the world, Liston became an easy target for sports columnists who remarked frequently on not only his menacing demeanor and vicious punching power but also his criminal background. Liston, who posted a career record of 50 wins to four losses with 39 knockouts, reveled in this role of the fighter America loved to hate.
Liston scored another knockout in a rematch with Patterson, but his 17-month reign as heavyweight champion ended at the hands of a brash fighter named Cassius Clay. Liston, who was viewed as nearly invincible before the fight, was unable to answer the bell for the seventh round, and Clay (soon to take the name of Muhammad Ali) became champion on February 25, 1964. The subsequent rematch with Clay on May 25, 1965 included the infamous "Phantom Punch." Although it appeared that Liston had barely been grazed by a Clay right hand, Sonny went down after one minute, 45 seconds of the first round and never got up.
In 1966, following the Clay defeat, Liston began a comeback. He won 11 consecutive fights by knockout through 1968 and added three more wins in 1969 before losing a brutal bout to Leotis Martin. He climbed back in the ring against the "Bayonne Bleeder" Chuck Wepner, and registered a tenth-round technical knockout on June 29, 1970.
After being unable to reach Liston for 12 days, his wife Geraldine returned to their Nevada home on January 5, 1971, at which time discovered Liston’s dead body. The official cause of death was lung congestion and heart failure, although Liston had fresh needle marks on his arm and police discovered heroin and a syringe in the house. Liston was buried in Paradise Memorial Gardens in Las Vegas beneath a simple gravestone with the epitaph "A Man."

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There are times that it gets redundant. Most of the time there are a few threads that catch fire.

I came on this three years ago, so perhaps you were not posting any longer in Classic by then.

Perhaps you would not be suited for debate there anymore, because if you step in potholes as you did in this debate, you'll get called on it. At times the rebuke is technical, at times it is sharp. As it was, my retort to you was gentle.... it evidently offended you but it shouldn't have. You sold Liston short enough -literally and figuratively- to indicate that you do not know much about him. Writing off Liston as "too small" and "to slow" to face today's HWs is not going to cut it particularly because you do not acknowledge his comparatively superior technique, his physical strength which you should know exceeded his dimensions (which you should know exceed Haye's). Liston was well-schooled in terms of technique. As a HW he was downright exceptional in that regard. And he was extremely strong... if you don't know why Liston was both feared and effective then you don't know Liston. Forget the Liston that faced Clay. If you cannot at least acknowledge the serious fighter that was 1959 Liston then those of us who do (like McGrain, like me) will fire a rebuke your way. Thus the boxrec comment.

This is not to say that Liston was invincible. He wasn't. There are recent posts where I discuss this so do not write me off as "biased". In contrast, your comments about Wlad's performance against Sultan really call into question your credibility. Wlad was 2 parts amateurish and 2 parts meek in that bout. It was terrible... lucky for him a performance that woeful is rare.

McGrain believes that you are blinded by some kind of attachment to Klitschko. I suspect the same. Here you have an opportunity to demonstrate otherwise. List Wlad's weaknesses: stylistically, technically, and between the ears -if you see any.

 

No, it wasn't.:rofl It was RUMORED that he was 4 years older, and that he was born in 1928, not 1932. So, because it was rumored... that means it's true?

 

So he would only win against White Movie stars but is a quiter against Black Muslims who yell at him after his pathetic throw in the towel job "get up you bum " ?

Those White Movie stars must be really shaking in their boots about the Baaaaaaad Ugly Bear,eh Sonny Liston, I forgot, Black Muslims gave him that name too.

Let me guess, HBO is your only form of "documentation" and NPR is your prefered news provider?

Ladies and gentleman , we have a winner.................

 

Good post.

 

You can't train or take a supplement to get a better chin. If Ross Purrity could stop Wladimir, any of the top fighters of the 60 and 70s could have. Lyle, Foreman, Liston, even Ali.

 

You can't train or take a supplement to get a better chin. If Ross Purrity could stop Wladimir, any of the top fighters of the 60 and 70s could have. Lyle, Foreman, Liston, even Ali.[/quote]
Are you pretending like Liston hasn't been knocked out? Not stamina issues... or knocked down over and over like Wlad has happened... but Liston has been KNOCKED OUT... deep out. If Ali while shuffling backwards and flickering out a right hand can knock Liston out... along with Martin... an average fighter who sent Liston crashing completely out cold onto his face... I am sure that Wlad has enough firepower to inflict some damage himself... wouldn't you think?

 

Look, do I think that Wladimir and Vitali deserve to be where they are? Of course, I do. Do I think they are all time greats? No I don't. Then again, I never got all the hype about Tyson either. All three came to prominence in weak eras. Larry Holmes was the last all time great we have had. Even Evander Holyfield, while being a true warrior, never reached all time great status. Evander's best fights were against Bowe and a 40 something George Foreman. It is sad to say but Lennox Lewis has come the closest to Holmes legacy. Close but no cigar.

Liston at 6" 217 to 220, would be like Brewster on steroids.

 

I actually had dedicated a thread before to what I felt Wlad's weaknesses were at the time. I really don't feel a need to prove myself to you, to be honest. For those on this board who talk to me in a reasonable manner, rather than character assassination tactics like you guys try... I get into very well in depth conversations with. I am not stupid enough to pretend like Wlad has no flaws, there has never been a boxer in history without them. If you would really like to find my answer to that question, you could either research, and hope that previous posts of mine on that subject are around, if not... maybe you could ask me like an adult, rather than accusing me of being some blind, rabid fan, and then offering me a chance to convince you otherwise... as if I am somehow seeking your approval. Sorry, but you really don't mean that much to me.


What I would love... staying on topic... is for you any of you guys to actually put forth a reasonable argument for what you are saying. All you guys are doing, is trying to attack what everyone says who don't agree with you. You haven't put forth any sort of opinions, backed up with facts that give a strong case for your stance. I would love to see it. You could definitely start by explaining exactly how Sonny Liston was "superior" technically to Wladimir Klitschko. I would love to hear this. I would like for you to explain to me, how such superior technique could lead to him about 90% of the time, dropping his left hand after he jabbed, and not even bringing it back into the correct position... it got him pasted with right hands on plenty of occasions. Also, was that awesome technique as he would throw winging shots from his hips as well? Not only was he slow.. but he really didn't even get back into proper position after his punches, or throw them all in a technically correct manner. I would love to know what this superior technique was.

BTW, I already touched on Liston's "strength". That strength, was a great attribute for him, when he was fighting in his era, against smaller guys. He wouldn't be bullying the Klitschkos around the ring... sorry. Quite a big difference between them, and the guys that he was pushing around.

 

Someone post that Sanders/Wlad Klitschko video and you can take notes of the AMAZING speed demon Wlad Klitschko and his incredibly TECHNICAL abilities ... it takes your breath away. Such an evolution. Obviously the heavyweight division is currently at its historical apex.





Wlad should sent weekly contributions to the NFL.

 

Why don't we show Wlad vs Byrd, or just about any of his other 52 wins and Liston vs Ali II, or Liston vs Martin?:-( Exactly what is your point? Is that what we do now? We choose the best performance form one guy, and the worst from another... and then pretend like you are giving a reasonable representation of each fighter?