Would Sonny Liston rule the HW division now?

Why is Wlad only slow in the Sanders fight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakura

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Sonny Liston dont have speed enought to do anything to Klitchkos

 

Why was Liston so slow in every fight?

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Is that the video you jack off to?

 

Here he is, showing some of that great jabbing technique that everyone is going on about... watch how Liston brings his left back in perfect position as he jabs... preventing any possible counter from his opponent.

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This is fun... see how stupid this is?

 

Of course. 40+ year old guys lose their reflexes and abilities especially when they stop training consistently, drink, smoke, gamble, etc. That's why anytime a younger guy only fights elites at the end of their careers it rarely means ****. Got it?

Surely you see two guys throwing almost simultaneously and Martin got there first. Really nothing to do with his jab or technique. Liston was already mentally committed to throwing the big right after the fourth jab. Unfortunately, Martin was set for the same punch to follow Liston's jab. The younger guy was quicker.

 

That makes sense, except it wasn't the first time that he was knocked out... and he wasn't 40+ in that fight... unless you are going to stand by the rumors that he was older than he said. Which.. I am sure you will because it suits your agenda.

Why did a young Liston get outboxed, and his jaw broken against a 180 pound, club fighter? Why did he get knocked out by ONE punch against a non-power puncher in Ali, who was also moving backwards when he landed the flickering shot? It's pretty easy to point out simple moments from the worst points in a fighters career... isn't it?

 

Liston would rule the heavyweight division only if he fought cruiserweight challengers. He might be able to win a title today but I think he wouldn't be able to dominate the way he did in his era. You're comparing a big fish from a small pond, Liston, to big fish from the ocean. Back in Liston's day a six foot tall 200lb man was considered a titan and the population of exceptionally large men with decent athletic talent wasn't as big either. I don't think any single fighter from any era would thoroughly dominate today's heavyweights, he may win a belt but there's enough talent around to take his belt away from him at anytime. I can't think of any opponents the oldtimers had who were superb boxing technicians and could really bang with either hand although some of them may mistakenly believe Gerry Cooney was that, but that's just how nostalgia affects certain boxing fans. In all earnestness I think David Haye would expose many ATGs if such a prime-to-prime contest. Don't bother pulling out win-loss records, I'm going by speed and effective punches, balance and technique, not if somebody beat a lot of stiffs with padded records or a field of contenders who are too small to even be the best in today's heavyweights. Don't bother going the James Toney route either, Toney uses banned substances that weren't available back in the old days also he never fought the best because like RJJ they know they'd be beaten to bloody pulps, sorry John Ruiz and Hasim Rahman weren't so much the cream of the crop as they were second fiddles who had belts and I'm fairly sure a steriod stoked Toney, even at a comparable age, could outbox the likes of George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena, Karl Mildenbarger and many others of similar quality. Back in the old days opponents were more comparable to Brian Minto and Timo Hoffmann that today's group, there just wasn't the mix of size, speed and athletic ability back then like there is now in the heavyweight pecking order. Liston might beat some of the top heavyweights today but he wouldn't dominate like he did during his era.

 

You have to be very careful when assessing speed from watching video, especially when it's speed concerning a large fighter. I can only guess why, but if you ever held handpads for a taller fight, or fought a taller fighter who is fast, the speed their punching speed looks a lot different when you stand in front of them than it does from a long profile shot. I think it has something to do with the punch takes longer to reach its target but it is also travelling a greater distance.

 

Right. I watched the first fight in 1969 (not '65). The Clay/Ali KO/stoppage was unusual (as Liston is a tough SOB) but to arguably the greatest fighter ever. So he was KO'd by Ali and then one more time six months before retirement.

But, the age in and of itself doesn't matter. A fighter who is put into the ring in their 20s against the best competition can be much older than another who is protected and never faces an elite fighter in their prime. A fighter who faces tough comp can be old by the early 30s, for example. But, there is little doubt that nearly all fighters at Liston's age are not what they were as men in their late 20s.

Oh, I don't know .. what do you know of Marty Marshall's career and how do you see the Michigan boxing scene in '54 and how any of that relates to Liston's career eight fights in?

Re: Ali

There are lots of takes on that fight. Others have surely given their opinion. I think it was a crisp, hard, clean right hand. It wasn't flicked. Ali wasn't moving backwards - he came forward for the punch. I do think the fight was stopped prematurely. And, Ali wasn't a light hitter. Have you ever seen the fight or Ali? If Ali is a light hitter then you must think RJJ is a light hitter. Speed + athleticism.

 

That sounds reasonable. The discussion is one in which Liston is being attributed with being, apparently, unusually slow and ponderous and, in particular, in comparison to Klitschko. I doubt prime Liston would suffer from that circumstance.

Comparisons between eras and dependent upon film and records is always nearly impossible to be sure.

 

You are personalizing this. Your credibility is in question here, not your dignity as a person.

...This is textbook evasion. You claim to be personally offended and therefore refuse to engage in a real debate. I don't blame you. So easily accepting what happened between Ali and Liston in Maine as legitimate speaks volumes. Relying on the Leotis Martin KO -that occured when Liston was almost a decade past his prime- to prove that Liston had a suspect chin is just as bad.

You had plenty of reasonable argument to contend with. You ignored them. It's amusing how you are trying to set this up: You ask for "reasonable argument" but it will be you who decides what is "reasonable" and you have already proven that you are immune to the reasonableness of any argument that contradicts your own.

...this indicates hypocrisy.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

You did not acknowledge Liston's strength, you dismissed it. (And what's further, I don't see Liston pushing either Klitschko around the ring.)

I'll say this much, if either Vitali or Wlad had you preparing them for 1959 Liston, neither one would stand a chance.

 

I don't recall calling Ali a light hitter. I recall calling him a non-power puncher. He could hit hard enough, but not the kind of power that should put someone out with one shot. Even Ali's biggest fans would never claim that he carried one punch knockout power. Also, Ali was NOT moving forward, he had just been moving backward, and he was still lurching backwards as he threw the punch.

Did you just ask me if I have ever seen the fight, or Ali? This is why you guys are annoying to have a discussion with. You can't just use facts, and bring a reasonable argument to the board... you have to start attacking the character and respectability of the person you are having a discussion with. It's a cheap attempt to gain an upper hand when you must not feel like your stance is strong enough.

 

I love all of those non-responses that you give... and act like you are actually debating.atsch All of that nonsense, and you still haven't answered or gave a decent rebutall backed up with facts. If you can't see that all you do is throw in cheap quotes and insults, rather than having a debate... then I don't know what to tell you. I keep posting opinions backed up with facts... and you keep saying things like "There are none so blind as those who will not see." Do you know what kind of people do that? The kind of people who can't put forth a reasonable argument. I have discussed EVERYTHING on this matter... outside of jumping through more hoops for you as you "gave me a chance to prove my credibility to you." It's pathetic, and you are just like 80% of the posters on here who act all high and mighty by doing NOTHING but attacking character and credibility... without actually saying anything productive yourself.

Posters like you are why the Classic Section sucks like it does today. I went out on a limb last night and took a look over there, because I hadn't done so in about a year. The place is pathetic, and you guys are not upholding the greatness that it once had. It was basically EXACTLY how it was when I stopped posting there due to how awful it had become... only it's worse. "Fighter A vs Fighter B, who wins?" I am amazed that classic posters come over and try to act high and mighty when you guys aren't discussing anything worthwhile over that at all. The classic section used to actually be a great section, were we actually discussed thing that mattered, studied, and broke down fights and fighters from the past... rather than cheap as Prime Tyson vs Prime Lewis... who wins? Apollo Creed vs Clubber Lang, who wins? T-Rex vs King Kong, who wins? WTF? You are proud of that?

If I was training Wlad against Liston my gameplan would be simple. Keep the footwork moving side to side... don't be predictable, just keep Liston turning and moving... as he has a tendacy to just keep following his opponent. Shoot the jab out at a very high rate. When Liston jabs, there are two big things that Wlad could do to make him pay. To make him pay, AS he throws the jab... often when out of range, Sonny would lunge in with the jab dropping his right hand a bit.... When he does this.... Wlad has a great hook that he could be very effective with. As far as how to make Liston pay AFTER he jabs, as I said before. He just about ALWAYS brought his left hand back low, and didn't bring it back into proper defensive position... Wlad could have HUGE success by countering the jab with the straight right. Of course that wouldn't be an entire gameplan, and I am sure that you don't expect me to map out months worth of training right now. However, those are GLARING flaws from Liston that I think that I think would be easy for Wlad to capitalize on... especially with the height advantage that he has.