Would Sonny Liston rule the HW division now?

I believe "Knn" said something along those lines, but dont qoute me on it. So I'm curious to know how you see the Haye/Vitali fight going down? I have been battling with the outcome all this week, but in every scenario Vitali ends up winning by knockout.

 

Well... obviously it seems like David Haye is tailor made for Vitali. However, we are always thinking of Vitali as he was almost 5 years ago. To be honest... I didn't think that he looked like even 85% of what he was in his fight against Peter. His feet are stuck in mud, his reflexes are a bit slower... he still has good reflexes... but not like he did. Not surpising considering the fact that he has been inactive for so long, has had two surgeries... and his going to be 38 by the time he fights Haye. It's hard not to envision Vitali pounding Haye with counters as Haye lunges the way that he does, leaving himself wide open, and off balance. However, given Vitali's age, injuries, and inactivity level, it isn't impossible for me to see Haye beating him with speed if he has the right gameplan. With Vitali's movement being slowed down, it would be much easier for Haye to land on him, and keep pushing the pace on the old man, seeing where his stamina is at. It would be smart for Haye to take what's there early... which would be the body. He should at LEAST be slamming jabs to Vitali's body for the first few rounds. That is going to put him in danger for right hand counters overtop, but that is where Haye needs to use his speed, and movement to slip to the side, and back out. Not to back straight out, but to attack, pivot, and get out.

All I do know is that IF Haye beats Vitali... we have a MEGA fight on our hands with Wlad vs Haye. I am talking HUGE. Of course, if I was forced to bet on the fight, my money would be on Vitali.

 

Hahaha NO. Only people like Maxnomer and Mcgrain owuld like you to believe this kind of thing. He faced a bunch of BUMS. Take Patterson off his resume and what does he have?

Besides, all the people he fought were small, cruisers by todays standards. I wouldnt even feed him to Wlad, Thompson would have disposed of him rather easily.

 

No I was being sarcastic.

 

Liston could not rule it when he had it. His image, and his death while still active (but past prime) added to his legend.

 

I think even if he could somehow KO Wlad (by a stray right right), he would not get past Vitali.

If Liston thought Ali was big, wait till he gets to the staredowns with the Klits.

 

You are wrong on all three factual counts.

1: Liston missed many HUGE shots and landed a couple. This is shown on film.

2: Liston DID work the body from round 2 on, a lot actually.

3: Your assertion that Liston all of a sudden was easy to hit in the 6th is incorrect. Ali hit him with ease in any round, though most apparent and hardest (stunning him) in the third. The sixth was actually the lightest round of the entire fight. Ali was taking a breather after running without eyesight and Liston was simply tired.


It sounds like you haven't seen the fight in quite a while. I suggest you re-watch it, because many of your statements are not congruent with what's on film.

Again, Liston WAS hit with hard punches in the 6th, even though sparingly so. He was still using upper body movement and a high guard to evade those right hands, which was successful about half of the times. He could've taken a dive on the other half of the right hands that did come through, but didn't. He also landed a nice left hook himself, by the way. He was trying, but simply outclassed.

Liston was always drinking and 31 according to the press and everyone around at the time and according to the census. No one thought he was old when he destroyed Patterson in one round, twice.

How do you know he doesn't say that? They didn't have the HBO microphones in the corners. You DO however clearly see them talking and in a way that they don't want to be heard by others. Have a look:

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Whether Liston asked for it himself or not is speculation, but he certainly didn't protest it. And it's an extremely unsportsmanlike thing to do.

First of all, for the second fight, Liston was only a 7 to 5 favorite. If you'd bet 100 dollar, you win 40 dollar. For the first fight, you win 700 dollar if you bet 100 on Clay (8 to 1 odds). 700 or 40 dollars, that's 1750%. How can you call 1750% difference "nearly" as good odds?

This is boxing, and i won't say it's impossible that Liston took a dive in the first, but given all evidence of him trying, his corner trying, etc etc, i find it about as likely to be fixed as Duran quitting against Leonard.


By the way, it's also possible that Liston simply didn't think he could take Clay in the rematch after he suffered a flash knockdown. Word has it he lost motivation when the fight was postponed. He saw he couldn't touch Clay again. Didn't want to through the same embarrassment again and found a soft spot. When Ali opens up on him as Walcott talks to Fleischer, you can see he is genuinely scared, which again could indicate that he didn't want to be in there with that mad man:

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So he was drinking while he performed his peak masterpiece?





One more thing. I respect you as a person and boxing expert, but i think it's remarkable that you accuse Widdow as biased on Klitschko's part. You're probably right there, but you're just as biased on Liston's part. Sorry but when there's 7 pieces of convincing evidence of Liston trying to beat Clay in their first fight, yet you still insist on very weak, sometimes factually incorrect and speculative claims that he took a dive.

Roberto Duran quit. He's still a great fighter. Liston quit. He's still a great fighter. Why go through this trouble?

 

Your words suffice here: "...as if I am somehow seeking your approval. Sorry, but you really don't mean that much to me..."

Okay, enough nonsense.

In sum, you hold that Liston's technique had "glaring flaws" -he would drop the right when jabbing, he would bring the jab back low, he would "lunge with the jab" and he tended to follow his opponents. So you'd have Wlad turning him and "countering the jab" with a left hook during its execution and a straight right when he brings the jab back low.

Liston's Level of Technique
Liston's fundamentals were sound. Sounder in fact, than most HWs. He did not habitually drop that right when he jabbed. In fact, when he was in with a banger like Williams who was known for his left hook, Sonny would anticipate the counter left hook and be in position to block it and counter. You say that Sonny would lunge in with his jab --he did not habitually do that either. Liston had good balance. As per his dropping his left after jabbing -Sonny did do this, but that doesn't mean that he was there for right crosses all day. He would jab and then move his head immediately.

Sonny was not a strict puncher like 1973 Foreman, he was a boxer-puncher. He utilized head movement. He blocked well, parried, was rarely off balance, and, unlike Wlad he also slipped shots well and countered. Liston could collapse ribs with body shots, threw hard combinations and could slug while varying his punches in a controlled manner -unlike Wlad.

Stylistic Foil
Clay/Ali and Eddie Machen (unfortunately for him -after his loss to Liston) understood how to beat Liston. You are correct in the importance of turning him. Any time you are dealing with a physically powerful puncher, you want to attack from angles. Some guys made the mistake of trying to neutralize his power by staying close -in the eye of the storm- but Liston knows what he's doing inside and the shots are worse there because his lack of speed isn't a factor and he can get leverage on his shots. Luring him out is better -he had a sparring partner named McCarter who beat him in the amateurs- McCarter would go to the body and make him reach and then slip or roll and counter. Machen knew enough to go in and out and move laterally... to force Liston to have to reset, but he didn't have the offense... Clay did.

Klitschko's Level of Technique
Wlad is no Clay. You say that you would see that Wlad is "not predictable" and that he is moving "side-to-side". You have a problem right out of the gate. Wlad is predictable. Not only that, but he moves stiffly and basically. He is not known for moving laterally.

He generally steps cautiously in behind a jab, and if the other man is aggressive, he jumps backwards while extending his hands. He is, I believe, so careful and cautious as to suggest an unwillingness to engage. If the other man is aggressive, his instinct is to retreat. He does not trade shots. This may be warranted at times especially considering his suspect chin, but the problem is that he operates on one speed at a time. He's either offensive and when he is, it's normally one shot at a time or two, or he's defensive. And his defense is technically unsound. His chin is up, he steps straight back constantly, he's out of position, and what was that you said about Liston dropping his left?? Wlad's left is low. Alot.

You have another rather large problem with your strategy for Wlad:

...Wlad is no counterpuncher. His modus operandi is to use the jab to find his range, and land it as a herald to his follow up -usually a hook off the jab or a crippling right cross. He doesn't counterpunch very often at all. Again, if the other guy is aggressive, Wlad is strictly defensive which usually means he steps/jumps out of range. And then begins the jabbing process again. In other words, he resets!

However, Wlad has serious power when he commits. His jab, left hook, and right cross can be dangerous. And when Wlad gets his man hurt, he is an excellent finisher. Excellent.

The Strength Factor
You say that Liston's typical strength advantage wouldn't be superior here. We may agree here. However, Liston's strength is a factor and here's why: he would be able to operate inside where Wlad usually either leans on his man or clinches. If Liston decides to force the fight, I don't think that Wlad has the mentality to try to match his strength. I see Wlad retreating and then resetting to probe for a shot.

Wlad is the bigger man and the stats bear that out, although I do not see Wlad using any strength advantage he might have. Liston has a 4 inch longer reach (and incidentally a bigger fist by 3" and a bigger wrist)... he will connect on Wlad eventually. Count on that. His fundamentals are more sound, he has more of a repertoire of offense and a more well-rounded defense. He also has more than adequate power to close the show on Wlad.

Prediction...
Is there a chance that Wlad can control Liston with his own jab and set up a right that will hurt Liston...? Absolutely. Wlad is one of the few HWs that I'd say could stop Liston at his best. And yes, Liston did tend to follow his larger opponents as you say. But he wasn't a sitting duck. In fact, he could be outjabbed and still do well. He was exceptional at slipping shots, including good jabs and he presented a moving target with adequate speed around '59 or 60. To beat Wlad, Liston will have to combine a tight defense with aggression. This is what Liston did at his best. And he came in behind a jab that could knock anyone off balance or at least give them something to think about. If Liston can get close or even mid-range to start in on those heavy combinations to the body and the head of Wlad, I see a KO late. Even as late as 1966, 68, and in his last fight, when Liston was pushing 40, he was able to deal with tall men -and when he got close, planted, and bent those knees, those combinations were serious. If Wlad knows to stay off the ropes, he may see the final bell, but if Liston musters the strength to move Wlad to the ropes (and remember, Wlad moves backwards alot... and he doesn't fight like a bull) then Liston may finish this earlier than expected.

 

If Haye beats Vitali and then fights Wlad
then

• Haye would be one of Wlad's biggest wins
• Voices would stop that claim Wlad needs his bigger brother to avenge losses
• The position of the two bothers would be more clear: Wlad the far faster and more expierienced one would be rated HIGHER than Vitali

I think Haye is tailormade for Wlad.

 

Is that because of their weight difference?

 

But Patterson was only 2+ years younger than Liston, while Ali was 9+ younger.

 

The weight difference is approx. the same like Haye-Vitali.

Do we remember what happened to Byrd? After the first fight he looked like Humpty Dumpty, after the second he was already forgotten. While Vitali broke his shoulder fighting flexible Byrd.

Wlad is also FAR more experienced in boxing all types of boxers. Wlad's boxing experience is approx twice as large as Vitali's.

The lightest (thus fastest) somewhat good opponents Vitali boxed:
Byrd (Vitali loses)
Vaughn Bean (Vitali needs 11 rounds to KO)
Larry Donald (Vitali needs 10 rounds)
Herbie Hide KO2, but Hide is smaller than Haye and I think slower at heavyweight and is a natural cruiser, while David Haye might be a natural heavyweight.

Now I know that this is far from conclusive but Haye has a better chance winning against Vitali than against Wlad, in my humble opinion.

But everything is a moot argument when Haye runs into a heavy hand of Vitali which most probably WILL happen since I don't think Klitschko will be KOed by Haye. But he might break his shoulder again or something else.

I would like to see the winner of
Haye vs Liston
against the winner of
Wlad vs Vitali. What do you think?