What does Calzaghe have to do to surpass RJJ and BHOP?

And Hopkins was supposed to fight Calzaghe in 2002 rather thab some bum!

 

Die and come back as a different boxer

 

That avatar is funny as hell. Funny because thats what people expect/think of him....The Chosen One.

God Bless America.

 

Jones and Calzaghe are not that far apart really. The only people Jones beat were Hopkins and Toney. Roy Jones never beat a undisputed, unified, or linear champion in his whole career. Calzaghe has done 2 of the 3.

 

thats because he couldnt get a decent fight on short notice when Hopkins bottled it! Who did Hopkins fight in 02? Exactly.

 

Roy Jones

Short and sweet this one.

To match Jones, Calzaghe would need to win world titles at cruiser and heavy so that he was a 4-weight champ as well. He would need to beat strong opposition doing so though, to make up for the fact that Jones won world titles at middle and heavy, a greater jump than supermiddle to heavy, and because just now his resume is inferior to Jones's.

Is Joe going to beat one of the better cruiser champs, and then take a title from a Klitschko or Valuev/Chagaev?

Here's my honest answer:


Bernard Hopkins

To answer this question, I'll paste in a debate Beatboxer and I had on this very subject:

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Trinidad, as good as he was, was a blown up WW though I do accept he was very good at 154 also.

Saying Trinidad was a "blown-up ww" smacks of agenda to me. I don't recall you or anyone else (that isn't a moron) degrading Monzon's wins over Griffith, Napoles and Benvenuti (the cornerstone of the resume of one of the best mw's in history) or Hagler's wins over Hearns, Duran and Mugabi by the same token.

Trinidad was a very big, very strong ww who easily made the transition to lmw and mw. If you look at his physical stats, he was huge for a ww, big for a lmw, and a perfectly standard sized mw - he was giving away only very slight size advantages to Hopkins on the night, no bigger than the average size disparity between any two fighters who are naturals in the same weight division, and considerably less than the size advantages often enjoyed by guys who are naturally big for their own weight division like Pavlik, Margarito, Williams etc.

In Trinidad's last 2 fights before Hopkins, he demolished unbeaten lmw champion Fernando Vargas (a big guy for a lmw, a powerpuncher, and also someone who may have been benefitting from performance-enhancing substances for all we know) and then dominated and KO'd natural mw and mw world champion William Joppy (a man who split his career between mw and smw, and who natural mw's Hopkins and Jermain Taylor failed to stop).

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Furthermore, it could easily be argued that Hopkins resume until 2004 was largely mediocre with a few notable exceptions and is wholly comparable to Calzaghes during that time. I believe you have seen my thread on the matter, and that is my opinion.

Hopkins's resume was better than Calzaghe's up till that point, but only slightly. I don't think Calzaghe's can be said to be equal when you consider that:

- Antwun Echols knocked out Charles Brewer in 3
- Antwun Echols had UD'd Kabary Salem
- Keith Holmes had stopped Richie Woodhall
- Howard Eastman UD'd Evans Ashira

The general standard of Hopkins's opposition was slightly stronger - and since then it has been a no-brainer I'm sure you will agree, thus proving (to me at least) that Hopkins's resume is significantly stronger.

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After the Taylor losses, he dared to be great, elite. Wins over Tarver and Pavlik added hugely to his record in my opinion. However, Calzaghe has since recorded wins over Kessler and Hopkins himself, without losing as Hopkins of course has to Taylor and Joe. It's close, as I said when comparing the two but I honestly feel that Joe's win over Hopkins gives him the edge.


Gives him the edge on what? Resume? Legacy? Both? Are you saying that you think Calzaghe has a better resume? Seriously? Even for a Calzaghe fan I find that difficult to believe.

Hopkins Top 5 Wins:
- TRINIDAD (win & performance of the decade IMO, against WBA mw champ, 3 weight world champ, 40-0 record, world p4p#3)
- TARVER (age 40+ coming off losses jumps 2 weight divisions and dominates linear lhw champ)
- PAVLIK (stunning win & performance against undefeated p4p#5 KO artist, 34-0)
- WRIGHT (becomes 1st man in 8 years to beat the 'best defence in boxing' who was also p4p#5)
- G.JOHNSON/DE LA HOYA/HOLMES, pick one of those three

Calzaghe Top 5 Wins:
- KESSLER (superb win in unification fight, Kessler has not proven to be anything yet other than a very good short-term alphabet champ at his own weight - a bit like Pavlik in that respect - but he does look an excellent smw)
- HOPKINS (the crux of my problem with Calzaghe's resume. I cannot see how he deserved the decision over Hopkins who rendered him ineffective to the point of impotent all night. Calzaghe hardly landed a clean punch the entire night and won purely on workrate against a more skilled opponent who had obvious stamina issues at age 43. HOWEVER, even if you think Calzaghe did deserve the decision as many do in this workrate-oriented age, no-one can say this was a great performance, or even a good one. Calzaghe was outskilled and relied purely on workrate/activity/volume to rack up the points he did win, he did not score with any clean or effective work. I viewed him as a less skilled operator after this fight on this evidence)
- LACY (wonderful performance against an overhyped and severely limited fighter. In all fairness, a win over Lacy would be one of the fights in contention for Hopkins's 5th best win)
- EUBANK (the most overrated win in recent boxing history. Eubank had fought twice in 2 years before his fight with Calzaghe, two exhibition fights in Asia and Africa, and this was after losing to Collins twice. He was no longer ranked in the smw top 10 by The Ring. He was rustier than the Titanic, basically in semi-retirement before he got an offer to fight for the title at short notice because of his name)
- MITCHELL/JONES, pick the last one from those two (I see Mitchell as a vastly superior win to the shameful farce of the Jones fight, but I realize many do not)

Hopkins's best wins are clearly superior, and that's not bias, they are to any knowledgable boxing fan. I can only assume that a belief that Calzaghe's resume is superior is that while Hopkins has had better wins and has beaten more quality fighters, his losses drag him down. Fair enough, but like Ali's resume is better than Marciano's, I still feel Hopkins's is far stronger. His only losses have been to peak RJJ (who would have demolished anyone 1993-2003, he would certainly have defeated Calzaghe handily at any point 1997-2003 if Calzaghe had even had the balls to take the risk for a big fight and face prime RJJ), to Taylor (I think Hopkins won one and lost one of the two - would Calzaghe at age 40 have done better against Kessler??) and to Calzaghe (which enhanced many peoples' views of Hopkins's ability as he outskilled the younger fresher man but lost as he couldn't hack the pace anymore at his age).

In addition to all of these points regarding resume, Hopkins was the first man to unify all 4 major titles in one division, and he reigned as undisputed champion while also reigning as world p4p#1 - two things Calzaghe never achieved. He was also a superior fighter in terms of h2h/ability (2001-4 Hopkins beats any version of Calzaghe, as that Hopkins had the skill of the version that Calzaghe fought but was free from the stamina issues that plagued him at age 43).

In addition to Calzaghe's feeble resume which he constructed almost exclusively in Wales for 9 years from 1997-2006, he only unified in his 9th year as champion (a 9-year WBO reign severely damages his legacy surely), and he NEVER held all 4 belts at one time - he was never undisputed champion.

Also, Hopkins must surely be credited for his special achievements over the age of 40. Many many great fighters have achieved great things between their mid-20s and mid-30s, but how many fighters have had the skill and the drive to be still competing at world class level and confounding the critics at over 40 years of age?

Hopkins will be remembered in the history of this sport as a legend in the mould of Archie Moore for this 40+ achievements. Once he no longer had the physical gifts of speed and stamina (physical tools which the comparatively unskilled artisan Calzaghe relies so so heavily on), he has relied a lot more on just pure boxing skills. And what a historic and supreme job he is doing of it.

Joe Calzaghe has only really truly impressed me for one half of one fight in his underwhelming career (I am impressed by quality performances against quality opposition) - the second half of the Kessler fight. He was ineffective and unconvincing v Hopkins and great against Lacy, but Lacy was not top opposition (anyone who saw Lacy's fight with Omar Sheika would agree).

For the objective fan of boxing, there really is no contest here.

What Joe Calzaghe can do about it now

Build a time machine, go back to 1997, and instead of hiding out in Wales for 9 years, he could have the balls to go for greatness. But if he had done so, he probably wouldn't have the zero now, as he was never on the same skill level as Jones or Hopkins anyway.

 

WTF? Case in surpassing RJJ are you kidding me?

 

He can beat them in the ring where it counts.....oh wait!!

 

Hey DINAMITA you perverted the point of my post you son of a ***** :twisted:

My views on this are well known. I believe Hopkins legacy is grossly overrated relative to Calzaghes and that JC actually has a slight edge but I don't mind people ranking Hopkins above him providing they bother to argue the point and don't merely state it like it's totally obvious....because it isn't.

Jones legacy is too far ahead for Joe to catch, he would have to beat another great fighter and capture Titles at CW and HW...

Beyond him to say the least.

EDIT: Ahhhh that was your post, in respone to mines...fair enough! I was only jesting anyway, I can understand people rating Hopkins higher but I do appreciate people putting forward an argument stating why they do so.

 

Jones handpicked the WORST beltholder at the time at Heavyweight in Ruiz yet you say Calzaghe has to beat one of the better Heavyweight Champs? Nice double standard there. It was OK for Jones to handpick the very mediocre Ruiz but would not be OK for Calzaghe to do the same thing? :huh

Jones made a career out of avoiding fighters and taking the path of LEAST resistance. If you are going to say Calzaghe did this than so did Jones. Again, your double standards. Jones refused to travel and fight outside of the States (something which WORLD Champions do) instead he fought a string of pathetic mandatory fights that nobody wanted to see or cared about on HBO PPV. At least late in his career Calzaghe traveled to make big fights something that Jones NEVER did.

The double standards in the "essay" you posted are sickening. Jones resume while maybe slightly better than Calzaghe's (which is nothing to brag about to begin with) does not mean much.

 

Hopkins was supposed to fight RJJ -- at that time RJJ was fighting better fighters than Hopkins (ok Glen Kelly was a can, but he beat Woods, who was doing well in the beginning of the fight and then got stopped of which no one else was able to do to him), Hopkins was beating scrubs (Allen for the 3rd time and that weird french guy). However they were supposed to fight, hopkins wouldn't take a 60/40 pay -- even though Roy beat him first, was the draw.... then other stupid things happened on the part of both RJJ and B-Hop that made the fight never materialize.

 

Ruiz is not as bad as everyone thinks, if you look at his Resume, show me many who have better than he. He beat good opposition, Ruiz did, had a good right power and of course had a belt. Yea he had a horrible style, but so does Hatton at times, yea he jumped up in the air for Kirk to hit him with a low blow, but he also had knocked down Kirk and was getting the better of him at many points. So what Roy picked him? I believe he would've stayed at heavy if it wasn't for Tarver. Personally I believe he should've fought Lewis afterwards, getting KO'd by lewis would've meant more then being KO'd y Tarver.

He didn't avoid fighters, that's nonsense. You are just putting all things on him, because you have a thing against him. Many offers were made to people, nothing ever materialized because there was always something that came up. But the fighters he fought, many of them were pretty good. And he was called reluctant Roy because when he got to Light heavy he had no problem just making it a sparring session, people said he was reluctant to trade. He did in some fights, but in the Tarver fight we see why!

 

Jones's resume is better than Calzaghe's right now, so if Calzaghe is going to pull level, he not only has to become a 4-weight champion, but he also has to beat quality fighters doing so to match his superior resume and superior achievements (Jones winning world titles at middle and heavy beats someone winning world titles at supermiddle and heavy, this could be balanced by the beating of a higher quality fighter than Ruiz).

LEAST resistance?? Hopkins at middle, Toney (world p4p#2 at the time) at supermiddle, Tarver at lhw? Sober up Rico.

Why would Jones leave the USA to fight when he was invariably the champion, the big name, the big draw, the higher ranked fighter? His biggest fights were Hopkins (American), Toney (American), Griffin (American), McCallum (I very much doubt McCallum wanted the fight anywhere but USA), Ruiz, Tarver (American) - what reason would Jones have had to go on a world tour?? What reason???

How many times did Floyd Mayweather fight abroad? Like it or not Rico, the USA is where the vast majority of the big money fights are, Jones had no reason whatsoever to go off and fight somewhere else.

Why would Jones choose to go to Wales to fight Calzaghe or Puerto Rico to fight Trinidad when he could make them come to him instead? Jones was American, most big money fights are in America, most of his big fight opponents were American - this is bull**** Rico, a feeble attempt at criticism.

It does mean much - it means he had a better resume. When you combine this with the fact that Jones is a 4-weight champ and Calzaghe only a 2, then you get your answer: Calzaghe is light years behind Jones. :good

 

Can't see how JoCal could surpass RJJ. P4P best and 4 division champ.

To surpass Hopkins I think he has to beat the latest up and comer in Dawson and beat Hopkins a second time, only this time don't leave no room for discussion as to who won.

 

To surpass RJJ, Calzaghe has to:

-Defeat Bute, Taylor, Froch and a couple more contenders at 168.
-Beat Dawson or Hopkins again.
-Beat Peter or someone like that at heavyweight.