Frazier's Power

joe frazier's left hook was more powerful than mike tyson's.

joe frazier knocked down muhammad ali - how many people have done that? don't discard the knockdown, ali was grimacing in distress when he was on the floor.

juding power is subjective as there's great room for variability. frazier's left hook was just as hard as the left hook of any other heavyweight MORE OR LESS.

 

Your opinion is as valid as mine,I was of course being fascetious,when referring to my expertise!

 

Keep in mind too when questioning Frazier's power (Or lack of) that Joe was a rather smallish HW who fought some good sized men. Ali was a big man as was Foreman and Bugner and Mathis. Foster was bigger than many previous HW champs being 6' tall with a long reach and dreadful power as well. The fact that he dropped flush the best HW champ of all time very late in a 15 round war speaks volumes about his power. No previous HW champ had to deal with the likes of an Ali or a Foreman, two big men who took a great shot. Come to think of it, how many past HW greats ended the majority of their bouts with a one punch KO? None. Oh they mave had one or two at times but lets face it, most were wear 'em down then take 'em out affairs. Dempsey damn near killed Willard and Jess was still on his feet after the 3rd round. His corner finally stopped it. Marciano clobbered Cockell all night but it took 9 rounds to end it. Put the right opponent in front of an ATG and he looks like the best ever. Put the wrong one in front of him and he can look pretty ordinary at times. Joe Louis was perhaps the greatest punching HW champ of all time but most of his fights didn't end with the 1st punch he landed. It's difficult to say who was the greatest punching HW but I would say Joe is right up there. There are a lot of 3rd raters out there with cast iron jaws who can make the best punchers look average so it's hard to tell. Too many variables.

 

So you think stopping Connor means something?

Marion Connor was a LH he weighed a flabby 180 when he met a 210 Frazier.Connor was stopped 10 times in his career ,he was kod,and I mean kod twice by LH Jimmy Dupree,in 1 and 4 rds.Kod by light punching LH Ray Anderson who had only 11 kos in 60 fights.And by Middle/LH Billy Douglas ,Buster's Dad in 8rds.You have constructed a case to refute your own point of view ,much better than I could ,so there is no point in my continuing this discussion.

 

Who did Shavers KO in his career, as compared to Frazier's record? But only a complete fool would claim that Frazier was ahead or even anywhere close to Shavers for punching power. This is the same with many tens of other heavyweights in history. Their record may not contain significant stoppages over top opposition, but only a fool would argue that Frazier hit harder than them. Henry Cooper did the same thing as Frazier, but he had done it with basically the first clean punch he landed (as compared to hundreds that Frazier landed on Ali before he was able to drop him), and had him in a more dazed condition than did Frazier.

 

The men that outweighed Frazier and were stopped by him were
Dick Wipperman ,who had been kod by cruiser Henry Cooper previously .Dick Wipperman at 209 was91/4 lbs heavier than the 199 3/4 Frazier.
Mel Turnbow a sparring partner 231 to 199 . Ron Stander ,unranked who at 218 was just half a pound heavier than Frazier,unheralded Don Smith 237 to 200 George Chuvalo twice stopped 2171/4 to 204,Ramos208 to 2041/2 and Buster Mathis 245 ,much of it around his belly ,to2041/2.The majority of Frazier's stoppages were over men smaller than himself ,like Marion Connor and Chuck Leslie, both LHVY's.
To postulate that because Frazier dropped Ali in the last round makes him a great puncher is crap.Bonavena went the distance twice with Frazier without being off his feet ,yet Zora Folley dropped him,so did Jimmy Ellis and Ali kod him flooring him 3 times in the process.

 

The power in that hook was frightening, though. Ali had absolutely no business getting up again.

 

Frazier hit hard enough to make George Chuvalo literally turn his back and quit.

Foreman didn't get nearly that kind of concession out of George.

 

A TKO on a record can be misleading, as it is classed as a TKO when the ref doesn't bother to count.
Hearns-Duran was classed as a TKO, so does that mean the punch which left granite jawed Roberto face first on the canvas had no power?

 

Yes I know, I jwas backing up your comment.

 

I never said Frazier did not have power,just not the awesome one shot power some on here credit him with,his most notable stoppages were acheived after a steady bombardment.Joe hit harder than Champs like Ali, Bowe,Holyfield,Douglas,but not as hard as Tyson,Liston,Foreman,Baer,Johannson,Marciano,Louis,Dempsey,that's my take on it.

 

In no way do I, and I'm sure mcvey, wish to berate Frazier's power. For what we want to do is understand better how his power is manifested. And I certainly don't believe we do that by blurring the distinction between TKOs and KOs as some of you appear to be doing to save Frazier's "powerfulness."

I think, on the contrary, there is a difference between the two that positively makes a difference! And a difference recognized by most.

First of all, we can look at how that difference is perceived by most and then at the power required for both.

You can easily see the difference yourself by observing how many fighters are often very unhappy with having to lose by way of TKOs. For many of them think they had a lot of fight left in them. And don't the standards of what a TKO change with the times? Many think there is growing tendency to call a fight off too early. Well, you see what I mean.

But, on the other hand, TKOs can often be considered practically a KO as some of you have observed when the fighter is rendered helpless or is thought to be. So what we have is a wide range of possible interpretations when it comes to the TKO. So, in general, it can be very subjective ending to a fight depending on the relevant conditions.

But consider the KO. We don't often see fighters who have been KOed contesting the call. The reason is the KO is considered by most to be decisive as I said earlier. Yes, it is easy to imagine some circumstance where even the KO is open to interpretation or even suspicion as many of you know. But it is easy to see there is less to argue about here. Hence most fighters would rather knock his opponent out and be done with it. For he realizes he won't get much argument from his opponent. Little doubt remains because the KO is so decisive.

Summarizing the distinction, then, we can say the KO is a more decisive ending to a fight in that it renders the fighter unconscious or nearly so. And it is a fact that Frazier had only about a third of his fights end that way as compared to others.

But the kernel of the debate seems to really be around the issue of power and what some of you take to be a berating of Frazier's power by the observation of the fact that Frazier most often won his non-decision fights by TKOs. In fact a high number of his fights were won that way by comparison to other fighters like Louis and Marciano.

But this observation is not a berating of his power. It is just the judgement that he won more often with TKO power and not KO power.

And who is to say that TKO power, when thought of as a force exerted on some object, may not be just as quantifiably great or powerful as KO power. Some of you have enthusiastically said this in trying to appreciate Frazier's power.

But since there are so many variables here and even a lack of any quantifiable way of measuring power (except in certain lab conditions which never reflect the real world), we naturally gravitate toward some common sense measure that we can see and agree upon even if it is not perfect.

That has traditionally been the KO since it is a force exerted that decisively ends the fight in the unconsciousness of the opponent. We even exalt the famous "one punch" KO since we take that to be even more decisive. I am sure you would agree it is in most cases.

And Joe Frazier simply didn't end most of his fights that way. But he nevertheless rolled over most of his opponents with his own kind of power and boxing style. Plenty sufficient to get the job done.

 

No way in hell Johansson, Marciano and Dempsey punched harder than Bowe. A 230 lbs guy that punches with the speed and delivery that Bowe had punches harder than a 185-190 lbs fighter, no ifs and no butts.

I really like you as a poster McVey, but I think too many have fanciful notions of the old timers punching power. In the end it's all about physics. Mass and velocity.

If you're looking for the most powerful punchers of all time I'm ready to bet that you'll find 80-90% of them among HWs who have been active during the last 25-30 years. Foreman, Shavers and perhaps Liston might have a place among them, but hardly anyone else before that.

 

I don't think body mass equals punching power. If it did ,how would you explain Bob Foster,Alexis Arguello,Ray Robinson,Tommy Hearns,Jimmy Wilde etc? Bowe had a right that got the attention of his opponents ,but imo it did not have the pop of those you have mentioned.How do we explain the power of Bob Fitzsimmons or a Joe Choynsky? I don't pretend to understand physics,all I know is the guys I mentioned left men considerably larger than themselves ,battered ,bleeding and unconscious hulks , prone on the canvas. Joe Walcott fought Louis twice and Marciano twice his given opinion was that Rocky had more one shot power than Louis.
Maybe we should agree to disagree ? Peace!

 

The guys you mention were explosive (speed) and had good technical delivery, but they were not big (mass) compared to the guys I mentioned. For example Lewis had decent speed, good delivery and was a hell of a lot bigger than these guys. Therefore he was more powerful.

I think Bob Foster would have been viewed as a huge puncher had he been active in the early 1900's, but since the HWs generally were bigger in his era he's only remembered as a LHW with great power. Not a powerful puncher compared to the HWs of his era.

On the same token a 185 lbs Marciano would not have been viewed as a big puncher had he been active during the same time as Lewis, Tyson, Bowe, Tua, Ruddock, Morrison etc.