Frazier's Power

I think Bokaj makes a good point. Maybe punching power should be regarded relative to the time a particular fighter fought. His point about Marciano raises questions. Would Rocky's punches have the the same effect on modern HW's such as Lewis, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe et al? Men who were good quality fighters with 20-50lbs on Rocky? Makes you wonder. Body mass does count for something, especially if you're good and these men as well as Ali,Holmes,Foreman etc. were good..Could Fitzimmons or Dempsey hurt these men as well? If they couldn't does that mean that they're not good punchers? Probably not. It's just that they would be hitting good quality men who are considerably larger than they are. That's why we have weight divisions in Boxing, to make things fair. A 185-200lb HW of yesteryear would be at a distinct disadvantage against a 240lb fighter of today, assuming of course that they're both good and in shape.So we should probably rate most fighters abilities,including punching power, relative to the times that they fought in. If we do then it's fair to say that Joe Frazier was a damn good puncher for his time.

 

Joe Frazier was powerful, though it was the SPEED of his left hook that
allowed him the chance to drop Ali. Against Ali, Frazier looked powerful
but not awesome.

Frazier threw quick hard left hooks. Yet, it took him awhile to cut down
Buster Mathis. Even Jerry Quarry, who stood right in front of Frazier,
lasted 5 rounds with him.

Frazier destroyed "smaller" heavyweights like Jimmy Ellis and Bob Foster.

Chuvalo, at that point in time, was a little past his prime, and stood right
in front of Joe.

Joe was a very hard, QUICK puncher, though I feel that Joe Louis, Max
Baer and a handful of others were harder punchers.


Grebfan9
www.firstroundboxing.com

 

They would not have been considered so in Dempsey's, Louis's or Marciano's eras. Ellis, at 200 lbs, would be quite big compared to what they were used to. Foster was just a couple of pounds lighter than Marciano and Dempsey at their peak.

This is a needed perspective when discussing ATG punchers.

 

HI BOKAJ,

good point. Though I mentioned these two fighters because Ellis
had started his career as a middleweight and never was a really
strong heavyweight.

Further, Foster was a lightheavyweight who had an awesome left
hook but was really not strong when facing heavyweights.

Basically, I was comparing the "smaller" heavyweights that Frazier
had faced (and destroyed) versus the stronger built heavyweights
that he fought (Ali, Mathis, Bonavena) to explain that I feel that
Frazier had very good power, but not awesome power.

Frazier DID destroy the "smaller" heavyweights, yet had to "break
down" guys like Ali, Mathis, Bonavena.

It is true that in Dempsey's, Louis' and Marciano's eras, Foster and
Ellis would not be considered "small".

Yet, both Dempsey and Louis DESTROYED larger heavyweights like
Carl Morris, Fred Fulton, Buddy Baer, Abe Simon, Max Baer, to name
a few. Matter of fact, Dempsey and Louis had more trouble with
smaller quick fighters (Tommy Gibbons, Billy Conn). because these
fighters were great defensive fighters.

I left out Marciano, because he did not fight any really big fighters
in the later stages of his career. He did KO a few big guys early on
but they were not ranked fighters.


Grebfan9
www.firstroundboxing.com

 

Ok. I see what you mean.

It took quite many clean hits for Dempsey to dispose of Willard and for Louis to KO Abe Simon, though. If they hadn't been taking so many consecutive clean blows due to their poor defenses it might have been viewed as they were worn down.

 

Thats true. Tho, Dempsey did hurt Willard badly with single punches
repeatedly. And he did drop Willard numerous times in the 1st round.

I can't comment on the Simon fights. I haven't seen the full fights, just
clips. I am a bit surprised that Simon lasted so long with Louis.

Your point is well taken - Dempsey and Louis did in fact have to wear
down the bigger heavyweights.

I think that the "power of the punch" issue might really boil down to
speed and ability to catch a larger opponent.

Frazier WAS able to hit Ellis AND Foster with clean hard punches.
Ali, tho he had a great chin, was much harder to hit with a clean
punch, and VERY difficult to hit with two or more consecutive punches
in a row.

In retrospect, Bonavena was an AWKWARD fighter, and tho seemingly
easy to hit, Bonavena seemed to be able to avoid Frazier's power a bit.

Yet, against quick "sneaky" punchers like Ellis, Folley and Ali, Bonavena
was dropped!!!

SPEED AND POWER together make a fighter's punches devastating.


Grebfan9
www.firstroundboxing.com

 

I disagree.

A good few people who saw Marciano hit thought that his power was comparable to or better than Liston or Foreman. I think the same would hold true in the 90s.

Also I dont think that anybody around in Fraziers era doubted his power even compared to the likes of Foreman.

Finaly I would suggest that if Bob Foster had been more durable he would have been regarded as a big puncher among the heavyweights (yes I am serious).

I verry much believe that top end power can come in small/medium sized packages and that once it is combined with technique you can have a destroyer.

 

I am not sure that I agree.

Willard never really recovered from that left hook Dempsey landed thatcaved in the front of his face. He seems to have been out on his feet from then onwards.

Dempsey needed a grand total of two punches to dispose of Fred Fulton.

Joe Louis certainly didnt need to wear down Buddy Baer in the second fight he just ripped him to peices.

Another guy who could turn the lights out on the big boys prety easily was Sam Langford.

 

A guy that's 50-70 (well proportioned) lbs heavier, and who has comparable technique and hand speed is going to punch harder. For me there's just no way around that fact.

 

But he wont have comparable speed or technique.

He might not evewn hit harder in real terms if he cant get his full body weight into the shots.

When I look at the best heavyweight punchers/ finishers of all time most of them have not been big heavyweights. Some have but most havnt.

I am prepared to say that if you brought Sam Langford to the present day he would be the best puncher and finisher on the planet. Perhaps Wladamir Klitschko would hit harder but he wouldnt be a better puncher.

 

If I'm going to rank Frazier's power, I'll limit myself to pre 1980. After that there's just too many bangers.

Louis, Liston, Foreman and probably Dempsey and Marciano beats Frazier for two-handed power. But his left hook ranks more favourably. It's not really in the class of Baer's right, though.

 

Hi Janitor,

Maybe I said it a bit wrong. Louis and Dempsey may have been
extended by some of the bigger taller heavyweights cause
they wouldn't be able to "place" their punches as easy on a much
taller fighter. Its a lot more difficult to hit a fighter who has so
much height/reach advantages and who is also throwing back.

(Tho, Dempsey did destroy Carl Morris and Fred Fulton quite easily).

Willard was a durable fighter - Johnson hit him with everything and
couldn't bring him down. Gunboat Smith was quoted as saying that
he hit Willard with his best punch and nothing happened.

BTW, do fight films exist of the Dempsey-Morris and Dempsey-Fulton
fights? I'd love to buy copies if they are available.


Grebfan9
www.firstroundboxing.com

 

I agree that there have been HWs with better timing and accuracy, and who were better finishers (Louis for example), but I meant in terms of pure power. And there I don't see many pre 1980 who compares with Wladimir.

When it comes to being a deadly puncher (power, speed, accuracy, timing etc) Tyson is my nr. 1 and Louis my nr. 2. Those two are more or less standouts. There's not one fighter in history they wouldn't be able to get to.

 

Joe Louis had no problem koing men the size of Lewis and
Bowe,and Marciano is generally conceded to have been
at least Louis's equal in one punch power,

 

I would venture that today's giants are more athletic, but of course Marciano (to a certain degree) and especially Louis could KO them. If Louis was active today, I think he would stand out for the speed, precision and delivery of his punches, but no so very much for his power - even if it would have been respected.