ATG: Who Ranks Higher? Holyfield or Holmes?

**** off
Exactly which HWTs would you rate behind Holyfield ?

Ps. I voted Holmes, better boxer & better HWT career... Id also fancy him in the H2H.

 

Holmes is the greater Heavyweight imo [no 5 for me].

 

Holyfield, not even close IMO.

 

P4P it is close as Holy was the best ever CWT.... but.....

Holmes & Holy are similar in size & Holmes was the far greater HWT fighter, Im sure Larry could have made cruiser earlier in his career but wanted to be HWT champion 1st & foremost.

I also think Holmes is the better technical boxer, more textbook, a great technician.

Thats why I say Holmes is the greater fighter.

 

Holyfield fought the best of his time and sought to fight the best...Holmes used the political orgs and King to avoid the best, It bothers me that he did not face Page,Dokes,Weaver,Tate,Coetzee,Thomas and did not rematch his narrow decisions...Evander if he had done this would have a better record but he fought Bowe,Moorer,Tyson,Lewis,Douglas,Ruiz,Mercer,Qwawi, ETC.....Case for Evander fighting the best and avoiding NO ONE Stands out over Holmes reluctance or his taking advantage of promoters power...POINTS for EH

 

A good argument can be made for either man being ranked higher than the other, but as much as I like Holyfield, I think I have to give it to Holmes. Of course looking at the positives of the real deal, Holyfield fought all of the best men of his era -something that Holmes did not always do. He engaged in more heroic battles, was the division's only 4 time titlist, may well have a few top wins that were better than Holmes' best, and for whatever its worth, was the greatest cruiserweight of all time.. The problem with claiming that he fought EVERYONE however, is that this claim only boosts a man's legacy if he actually defeated all of the very best. If we leave out what he did at cruiserweight, then Holyfield's heavyweight record is 24-10-2-13. Of course, there is very little to almost no padding on that record, and most of his losses came at a late age, but we have to take the bad with the good.

Holmes began his career by establishing the second best undefeated winning streak in heavyweight history, along with the second longest reign and second largest number of title defenses. There are some here who have commented on his close calls with Tim Witherspoon and Carl Williams, but frankly I did not feel that he lost either of those fights. At best, they might have been ruled draws, but I think even that's a stretch. Holmes looked unimpressive at times against mediocre opposition and for some reason, that has transpired over time into the misconceived notion that he was " gifted decisions ". I do not see this as being the case. Holmes was definately NOT a judge's sweetheart the way the Ali and some others were. He did however get screwed out of the Spinks rematch verdict as well as a much later decision in life against Brian Nelson, but I'll leave those out of it. His never facing the likes of fellow titlists like Page, Thomas, Dokes, etc, is often made into a huge deal on ESB, and in truth it does hurt his legacy some. But, none of those men stood in the spot light long enough for a real unification to materialize, and I believe that its only in hindsite that folks are making a fuss over it. How long has Valuev been a titlist? Has Wlad been able to arrange anything yet? What about Ruslan Chagaev? How come Lewis never fought Byrd, Wlad or Ruiz? Now, know there are reasons why these fights never came off, but some never seem to apply the same explanations where Holmes is concerned. Its almost always written off as ducking....

 

I go with Holyfield,its a close one though as i liked Holmes a lot.

 

Holyfield was a cruiserweight champion who stepped up to heavyweight. For me that makes a helluva difference.

Holyfield beat peak Bowe - a huge win for me. His wins over Qawi (twice), Tyson (twice), Pinklon Thomas, Ray Mercer, Michael Moorer mean that he has an all-round better resume than Holmes, who lost twice to a light-heavyweight at hw. A great lhw, but nonetheless a lhw. Other than a loss to the much bigger Bowe, himself a top quality hw h2h, his only loss before he was well past-prime was Moorer, and Holyfield avenged this in style, which Holmes failed to do v Spinks.

Holmes would beat Holyfield h2h at hw, Holmes was a great hw, but all-round p4p greatness I don't even see Holmes as being on the same level.

 

Holmes above Holy At HW P4P and H2H

Methinks people seem to have forgotten that Holy was fairly inconsistent at HW.

None of his reigns at WH lasted longer then 2 years and he did lose to the fist dangerous young contender in Bowe he fought.

Being Champ for 7 years turning back all contenders for as long as you where in your prime having 20 defenses counts for a lot.

Yes some will criticize Holmes for the quality of some of his challengers but the fact remains that Holmes beat every challenger for his title for 7 years (and there where fights where he had to pull victory from the jaws of defeat)

Holy has never shown such consistency.

 

To me that shows Holyfield was fighting the tougher compitition that's why he hadn't held the title for 7 years. If Holyfield fought the Cobb's and Snipes' that Holmes did he would have been champ for seven years too. The level of competition was a hell of a lot better during Holy's reign then it was during Holmes'. Theu question is a top 100 ATG list which means Holy's whole careerr must be examined including the cruiserweight titles. By far Holy is above Holmes p4p. Holy cleaned out the Cruiserweight division and did a pretty damn good job on the heavyweight division as well. But like most fighters stayed longer then he should have and lost fights to fighters he would have destroyed in his prime.

 

Holy - 2 weight lineal champion, best cruiser ever and 4 time HW champion.

 

I'd like to see your list one day as I have seldom seen Holyfield rate that high.

IMO, top 4 for Holy is too much. Bowe got the better of a prime Holyfield, and Holy lost to the likes of Mike Morrer, and Ruiz. Didn't look that good vs Cooper, or Bean either.

 

Although I think that Riddick Bowe was quite possibly better than any man Holmes fought during his title reign, and perhaps ever for that matter, you make a good point here. Bowe was the first man who Evander faced that was the comparable of say what Cooney was for Holmes. Needless to say, he failed the test.

Now, he DID manage to comeback and defeat Riddick in a fight that he was heavily predicted to lose. But, health issues led to his being beat by Moorer in his very next match.

Evander is one of my favorite all time heavys, and I have always felt that he exemplified what being a champion should be. I can't however, rate him higher than a man who was undefeated in his first 48 fights and 20 title defenses through the age of 35. Sure, we can say that Holmes never unified, but then again, Evander didn't have to either. He merely won the unified title from a man who was long considered a mediocrity that got lucky, then blew up to a fatass 247 Lbs in his very next fight. It wasn't like he traveled the division collecting plastic trincket after plastic trincket. Hell, at least Holmes defeated a live and well conditioned Ken Norton for the WBC belt. Furthermore, some will say that Holmes gave title shots to clowns like Ledoux, Ocasio, Evangelista, Rodriguez, etc... But, Let's face it, Holyfield wins the title from a fatass Douglas. Then he defends his title against two 40 something year old men, plus Bert Cooper. Now, I realize Foreman was on a good winning streak and I personally felt he deserved a shot.. Cooper was a last minute replacement, and Holmes had his big win over Mercer. But on the surface, it sure as hell doesn't look pretty.......

 

I have Holmes ahead of Holy in my list...To be honest Im not totally sure why, as Commander Evander is a favourite of mine and Larry really isnt. Holy defo did more in a p4p sense and had a decent heavyweight career.

I think I had Holmes in the mid 80's..Holy in the mid 90's.

I dont know..Im not a doctor but Ill leave it that, I think they are within range of each other anyway.

 

I think Holmes is probably a #6 or #7 guy, while Holyfield likely sits somewhere around #9 or #10. If we're looking at p4p, then Evander's Cruiserweight career might earn him a few more points. His 24-10-2-13 record at heavyweight though is not pretty, even though it is basically padding - Free. If we cut his career off right around say, the John Ruiz trilogy, then his record would be something like 19-5-2-11 - A tad better perhaps, but still nothing like 69-6-0-44, or whatever Holmes' final record was.