Stonehands' (~Objective) Top 10 HW Champions.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009.


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  1. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    #1
    Stevie G and ikrasevic like this.
  2. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    #2
  3. Russell

    Russell Loyal Member Full Member

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    How is Johnson's adversity rating so low when, as you mentioned, no one ever fought under more hostile circumstances?

    The mere fact that he was able to train, focus... Anything really, with the constant death threats and bull**** he had to endure
     
    Russell, Jan 27, 2009
    Russell, Jan 27, 2009
    #3
  4. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    How exactly does Tyson only merit a 7 in the category "Dominance during title reign"? He was one of the most dominant champions of all time during his reign.
     
    Sweet Pea, Jan 27, 2009
    Sweet Pea, Jan 27, 2009
    #4
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Fascinating effort.
     
    McGrain, Jan 27, 2009
    McGrain, Jan 27, 2009
    #5
  6. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Thanks!
     
    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    #6
  7. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    His challengers for the title, Russell. Adversity means in the ring, here. He flagrantly avoided any and all black threats when he became champ. That must hurt him. Here's three more reasons: Battling Jim Johnson, 12-11, draw. Tony Ross 16-8 scheduled for 6 rounds. Stanley Ketchel -Middleweight.

    Johnson was looking for anything but adversity once he became king.
     
    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    #7
  8. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    ...and he was 23 years old when he got toppled by a 42-1 underdog.

    And a 7 isn't bad.
     
    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    #8
  9. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Interesting piece, but i think making judgments based on categorical rating is rarely on the mark, and that goes for a lot of areas. I've often judged reports from my students in a rating system where each area is scored, but often i found myself thinking that the report was worth more/less than it got by the rating. For instance, i'm sure you thought Liston came out a bit lower than your gut feeling expected him to do. I sure did.



    On the ratings itself:

    I think Holyfield deserves a 9 or a 10 in the Longetivity department. He was at or near the top of the heavyweight division for 14 years during '89-03 and according to most beat Valuev, a top5 contender and beltholder during his last fight in 2008. By comparison, Johnson has a 10 for longetivity while he was at or near the top from 1903 to 1915, which is basically just as long. On top of that, he faced **** opposition during the last 6 years of that, from 1909 to 1915.



    I also think a 6 for adversity overcome for Lewis is low. First of all, he took on all comers and high risk/low reward fights during his entire career, which is something even the men on this list can't all say. Second, his knockout losses have nothing to do with his heart. Against McCall he wanted to continue (hence raising his arms in surprise when the fight was stopped) and against Rahman he was simply in la-la land. He's been involved in wars where he showed he could dig deep and win (Mason, Mercer), win fights by stoppage after trailing points (Klitschko, Bruno) and got back after being staggered (Briggs). He never showed any sign of quitting or disinterest in battle. I think he rates a 9.




    And this is perhaps a minor point, but you give Ali an extra point for missing 3 years of his prime. Fair enough, but why don't Tyson and Louis get the same bonus for missing 3 and 4 years of theirs, respectively?


    I'm done bitching for now. :) Interesting read.
     
    ChrisPontius, Jan 27, 2009
    ChrisPontius, Jan 27, 2009
    #9
  10. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think Tyson is over rated in regards to "Dominance". Dominance is like Ali, or Joe Louis or even Rocky Marciano. Cleaning out house in your own era. All 3 did that well.

    Tyson didnt relly dominance his era, he clean up on the Holmes left overs, than lost it to Douglas. Dominance fighters dont lose there titles to fighters like Douglas.
     
    Dempsey1238, Jan 27, 2009
    Dempsey1238, Jan 27, 2009
    #10
  11. anon1

    anon1 Member Full Member

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    Rating Tyson over Frazier is ridiculous. Where is Frazier's 10 for (A) heart? You gave him a 7 yet Ali gets a 10. Frazier's ass kicking of Muhammad Ali is more impressive than what Holyfield, Lewis, Holmes, and a lot of other guys did.

    Holmes getting up from monster punches and winning fights compares favorably to Lewis' 2 career mistakes. Holmes should be rated above Lewis & Foreman.
     
    anon1, Jan 27, 2009
    anon1, Jan 27, 2009
    #11
  12. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Liston is nowhere near the top in terms of his reign. I rank him exceptionally and surprisingly high for H2H, as you know, but can't quite call him a HW elite champ. No way. His numbers look fair to me.

    As to the categories system, I'd say that it is the lesser evil. What do you have out here when posters rank fighters? You have mass confusion. Some rank based on h2h, others rank on competition, etc. There is no consistency. Everyone's talking about different things and they don't even realize it half the time. Categories, at the very least, streamline the arguments. That's the first point....

    the second is simply that I see it as a guideline. I have a book "Boxing's top 100" by Bill Gray. It's strict in it's science, but the results are crappola. Why? Because Gray knows baseball -not boxing. His top 5 are okay, but then when you see Chavez at #5, Foreman at #7, Al Brown at #9, Azumah at #12, followed right away by McCallum and Hopkins, and now you got purists like me puking in a can.

    Mine are quickly done, but I think that they are more sensible.

    Good point about Holyfield and Johnson. I would mind bumping Evander up because he really hasn't been doing much save for looking somewhat-half- kinda-decent-I-guess against Frankenstein... Holmes, for example, spanking Mercer makes him more deserving. I will move Jack down though and ....I'll do it now.

    Lewis got bombed out in his prime. His chin couldn't take the adversity from second-raters... he suffers there. Should he get the same score as Frazier and just as high as Holmes with a 7 or more...?

    Convince me if you can.
    I think Tyson was past prime when he went in. Louis... well..... hmmm.


    I appreciate it... and you have successfully made me amend it!
     
    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    #12
  13. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think he is overrated in terms of dominance too, but is he overrated in my category of "Dominance"? I have to give him credit for cleaning up the mediocre titlists in the wake of Holmes,

    and then Holmes himself,

    ... and then Holmes' conqueror.

    Can't you? A 7 is fair. Is it not?
     
    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    #13
  14. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Throw in late stamina and power or strength over 15 rounds and you will see a few men go down in the charts but it is a good way to measure but intangables are hard to measure
     
    Bummy Davis, Jan 27, 2009
    Bummy Davis, Jan 27, 2009
    #14
  15. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    "Ridiculous" is emoting. Provide argument please. There's a framework on your screen provided for you.

    Frazier needs more than one fight. Frazier at a 10 is ...ridiculous. And here's why: Ali: faced the feared Liston who was adversity personified. stringent in his eyes. faced the second coming of Liston 10 years later. Lost heroically to Frazier but then beat him twice and outlasted him in III. Broken jaw in Norton. Reflexes shot... faced Shavers. Need I say more?

    Holmes' reign looks like schoolyard bullying next to Lewis'.

    Foreman's longevity is a big factor here. So isn't his reclamation of the title. So isn't his destruction of Frazier and Norton. Holmes can't beat that stuff.
     
    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009
    #15
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