Stonehands' (~Objective) Top 10 HW Champions.

Very effective effort Stonehands.

I like your rating system (makes more sense than many I have seen) and it gets bonus points for me by dismissing the idiotic head-to-head factor, which in my mind is for the most part is a useless measuring stick when drawing up rankings lists.

Definitely one of the more balanced and logical lists I've seen in a while.

 

Second that.

 

But Ali stands alone in terms of adversity faced in the ring. Marciano got a 10 and he certainly didn't face larger adversity in the ring than Frazier, quite the opposite. Frazier faced down the living myth and master of psychological warfare that was Ali. Marciano has nothing like that. I also think a shot Frazier should get a lot of cudos for doing his best in the rematch against Foreman, a man who had utterly destroyed a younger and better version of him. Even though he lost again, it had nothing to with his mental attitude.

The first Bonavena fight is often used to point to Fraziers flaws, but people forget to mention that he came a whisker from losing by KO, but came back and won the fight. This was a great show of determination and winning instinct.

As for courage... Frazier keeping getting up in the first fight against Foreman and refusing to go down in Manilla is courage that not only borders to stupidity but also superhumanity.

I'd give Frazier at least a 9 in this category.

 

Fine list, good job - even that Frazier is to low and Tyson to high :good

 

No disagreements, except for here:

Well, the category was

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I will restate: Lewis faced 36-0 (33) Gary Mason in just his 2nd year as a pro, and beat him. A year later he faced Ruddock, who just gave Tyson quite a fight. Knocked him out in two. He knocked out Bruno who gave him problems. Pulled out a win in the Mercer fight during the late rounds when in trouble. Managed to beat Klitschko at 37 when in big trouble and out of shape against a peak, in shape big motivated challenger. Made adaptations and destroyed Briggs after being stunned. Went back in the ring with both men who stopped him, never looked unconfident and stopped both in dominant fashion.

If that's not adversity overcome and evidence of heart, then what is? Him getting knocked out by Rahman has nothing to do with heart and everything to do with chin and preparation. McCall, dito.


For instance, Foreman ranks a 7 in this department, which seems fair to me, but he had no problem with being stopped when he got up at "9" against Ali. He never beat a skilled boxer with a good chin, in fact, outside of Lyle, all of his opponents were tailor made for him because they either came right at him or had very weak jaws. He sure showed a lot of ability to overcome adversity in the Lyle war, but then again, that's somewhat similar to Lewis vs Klitschko, except that there Lewis was old, out of shape and had a much better opponent in front of him.

 

By that stringent definition you're right, but I thought you were more looking for the mental ability to overcome challenges your body and skill aren't quite equal to, or die trying. And this could be used as a defintion of Frazier by itself.

 

It should also be noted that Frazier had impaired vision for most of his career (and a couple of other medical conditions, if I'm not mistaken). That sure is adversity overcome.

 

Thanks, but i'll summarize it to 2 questions:

-Explain to me how getting stopped against your will by the referee on one occasion and plainly getting knocked out on another (when 35 years old) shows a lack of heart?

How is it related to overcoming adversity? The McCall fight went one and a half round; hardly like he was looking at a bad beating when he got stopped. In the Rahman fight he was leading comfortably when he got knocked out. Again, at what point could he overcome adversity? His body shut down and that's the end of it. Overcoming adversity came when he faced his knockout executers in rematches, and he showed his colors there by dominating both. In addition to that, he also had to overcome being the underdog in nearly every fight because he wasn't popular nor American.

Do you think him purely losing those fights was a sign that he couldn't overcome adversity? Because i'd think that's a very narrow-minded view that ignores all the occasions when he did. Ali, who scores a 10, certainly couldn't overcome the adversity when Norton beat him the first time and when Frazier beat him the first time. Explain to me how Ali deserves a 10 when he failed ot overcome adversity against them, or for instance during the Norton rematch and the Young fight.

 

Have to agree with ChrisP. A guy who overcame every adversery that was put in front of him have to get a pretty good grade when it comes to "Adversity Overcome", even if he lost to some of them.