Stonehands' (~Objective) Top 10 HW Champions.

First off, fine effort old man!

I have to agree with Chris on his point regarding Lewis's adversity though. Lewis in his only 2 losses did not really have a chance to demonstrate adversity in defeat, for the reasons that Chris has already documented. However, he displayed plenty of dealing with adversity in some of his victories and for the opponents that he took on when said opponents were seen as highly dangerous and avoided. Mason, Ruddock, Golota are obvious examples.

I think it's fair to mention that Lewis lost twice by stoppage against 2nd raters at this level. However, too much is made of the stark facts and not enough of the circumstances. Foreman was stopped by a relatively light-punching Ali and it's almost excused by many because he was 'exhausted' and otherwise he never would have been stopped. Yet when it's pointed out that Lewis was likely badly tired against Rahman in the first fight (due to the lack of altitude adjustment) it's called lame excuses etc etc. This smacks of double-standards. Does anyone think that a properly prepared Lewis would have lost against Rahman? He demonstrated in the rematch the gulf between them when he was properly prepared and focused. He also destroyed one of the old adages in boxing. That is, knock a man out in the first fight and you'll KO him quicker in the rematch.

So at the very least he's a 7.

I also feel you could possibly up his AG rating to 9. My argument for that is that there was no style or physicality that Lewis could not deal with. Lewis controlled fights with the jab more than some might recognize or acknowledge. The Tua fight is a good example of Lewis using the jab to disrupt the rhythm of a dangerous opponent. Lewis also sometimes was able to sense when it was better to blast out an opponent as opposed to keeping things more cautious.

That would give him a score of 41 which would tie him for 5th place, which is a fair enough ranking.

Unlike some others though I'm actually in favour of a H2H score, despite its difficulties in objectiveness.

 

My head-to-head list per your system now looks like this:

Ali - 48
Louis - 47
Marciano - 45
Foreman - 44
Frazier - 44
Johnson - 42
Dempsey - 41
Holmes - 41
Tyson - 39
Lewis - 39

It's interesting how the generally universally revered top three rise to the top. After that, it looks pretty weird but I happen to like what I see:

Foreman's place can be explained because he proved the uniqueness of his power by carrying it over 20 years of haitus to reclaim the crown. To me this is evidence that in Big George we have a punching specimen in a class all his own. Had Ali not cut him down, he might have reigned forever.

Frazier beat the top heavyweight of all time when it mattered most. No excuses. Joe deserves every accolade. He was truly great. And 9 successful defenses are better than most top champions'.

I rate Johnson and Dempsey very high head-to-head, but their reigns were not stellar at all.

Holmes is where he belongs. Great fighter, extremely long reign, suffered too much against less-than-great opposition.

Tyson burned out way too fast. At his peak, he could defeat any man at any given time, because he had the unique tools to do it in a nonpareil blend of speed and power. But he lost interest in pursuing the ideals of greatness and glory and legacywise must suffer accordingly.

Lewis did everything right. But I'm with Stone. A creme-de-la-creme champion does not get knocked out twice in his prime by crude punchers. Period.

This was fun and has merit as something more to run with. :good

 

Very refined and cunning.

I don't think i'm going to convince you or vice-versa, so i'll agree to disagree. We're slowly turning this into a Lewis thread and that shouldn't be the case. :good


By the way, my point was not THAT he fought in America, just that he always had the majority of the people rooting against him. No, it's definitely not a major point, but it IS part of overcoming adversity. And you have to admit that he was not exactly well liked nor estimated at his true value, except when it came to Bowe and Tyson avoiding him, but they weren't the average joe's buying tickets of course.

 

This goes straight up on my wall! Thought Christmas was over, but...

 

IMO, Jeffries adversity ( A ) should at least be a 9. Who else could win a fight with a bad arm, or beat someone with the plaster of Paris in his gloves, or fight world class guys with just a few fights under his belt?

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STONEHANDS RATINGS BY CATEGORY

E (Experience/Level of Competition thru career)
10 Ali, Holyfield
9 Johnson, Lewis
8 Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, Louis, Tyson
7 Dempsey
6 Jeffries, Liston, Marciano

D (Dominance during title reign)
10 Ali, Johnson, Louis, Marciano
9
8 Foreman, Jeffries, Lewis
7 Tyson
6 Dempsey, Holmes
5 Frazier
4 Holyfield
3 Liston

L (Longevity as a professional. Includes # of fights)
10 Foreman
9 Holmes, Louis
8 Ali, Holyfield, Johnson, Lewis
7 Liston
6 Marciano
5 Dempsey, Tyson
4 Frazier
3 Jeffries

RG (Ring Generalship/Formidability of Style)
10 Ali, Johnson
9 Dempsey, Liston, Louis, Marciano, Tyson
8 Holmes, Jeffries, Lewis
7 Foreman, Frazier, Holyfield

A (Adversity overcome)
10 Ali, Marciano
9
8 Holyfield, Louis
7 Foreman, Frazier, Holmes
6 Dempsey, Lewis
5 Jeffries, Johnson
4 Liston
3 Tyson

* (Special circumstances)
3 Louis
2 Johnson
1 Ali, Foreman, Holyfield

 

I too thought he received a lower score on RG than he deserves, but given the texture of the thread, I didn't want to once again make Lewis the focal point. I don't recall too many fighters who could control the distance and tempo of a fighter any better than him. He was great at making his opponents, be they Grant, Tua, V.K. etc, fight the style of fight he wanted to fight.