Would Ali have acted as Louis Did?

I beleive Louis made a quote , something like "theres things wrong with this country ,but nothing that Hitler would fix".The quote of Ali's about the Vietnamese never calling him etc was given to him by an associate,I can't think of his name at the moment.I wonder how Black service men felt ,fighting a war in a segregated army?
Hitler seems to have had something in common with some of the Southern population of America at that time.

 

One reason would be that by Ali-the most prominent member of the Nation of Islam- taking this stand ,there would be more publicity and wider exposure of the beliefs and doctrines of the NOI,and the character of it's prophet and leader Elijah Muhammad. You could see it as an act of self-interest on part of the NOI. I don't believe Ali needed to be persuaded.He would have supported the Vietnam war,should his spiritual mentor have advised him to do so.

That's a simplistic way of looking at things,but it is one factor to take into account.

 

Was the army still segregated during Vietnam?

 

No.

 

If Hitler had conquered Europe and won in the east it would have been too late for the United States to put up some sort of resistance.

His economic and material superiority would have been overwhelming.

 

Exactly what I said earlier. With only having to fight a one front war (that is, of course if Hitler listened to his generals and threw all of Nazi Germany's might against Britain before invading the U.S.S.R.) the Nazis would have had to only fight a one front war against Stalin, a lot of "what ifs" to be sure.

 

First I'll echo what other posters have said: WWII was a different war. It had to be fought, whereas Vietnam and Iraq did not. Americans were lied to just the same, the horror of the death camps was kept from them. Would this have swayed public opinion, even given the thriving antisemitic sentiment of the time, even given the country's hangover from the first world war, that is a question we could ask, I just don't know. In my opinion, and with the benefit of all this hindsight, we were late getting into WWII. It's easy to say that we should have blown Germany off the face of the map, what about all of their innocent, frightened citizens? But to sit by and watch millions of people go to the gas chamber is not a heroic act. I am not a fan of the Israeli government as they are the oppressors now, but no way should we have sat on our hands while Europe and a large part of Asia burned.

Ali wasn't unpatriotic, he was a guy who had enough self-respect to be offended by the lies and hypocrisy of the Vietnam era. Isn't this what we admire in men, to stand up to power, to oppression? Isn't this what we expect of ourselves? He would have gone, because it was the right thing to do, and Ali was a guy with courage of his convictions.

 

The tide had turned in the Eastern Front before the US entered the war. And it was Hitler who declared war on the USA, so the USA was involved whether it wanted to be or not...

I believe if Ali held his same Vietnam stance during a WWII era - his legacy would have suffered greatly. I don't believe his reputation would have rebounded as it has.

 

Good points. We should consider that it was popular opinion among young Americans to oppose the Vietnam. To serve in the US armed forces during world war II however, was considered an honor, obligation, etc. Young men were highly revered for their services in the first and second world wars. In Vietnam, returning soldiers were spit on and had profanities screamed at them...

 

He would have also earned a place in the annals of history as a supreme FOOL for refusing to take up arms against a regime, in the Nazis, that would have treated him to their program of racial eugenics, which to put it mildly, was "somewhat worse" than not being able to drink at certain water fountains, or being refused service at diners and restaurants. (understatement alert!!!!!)

 

As I was saying, if Hitler had yielded to the wishes and the wisdom of his generals, he wouldn't have attacked the U.S.S.R. until Britain was defeated, and it was against his general's advice to declare war on the U.S, as well. If both of these errors of Hitler weren't made, he would have had a one front war against the Soviet Union, while the U.S., would have probably concentrated on it's war with Japan. IMO, if the Nazis had only the Soviets to contend with, and could have devoted ALL their forces in the East, they would have conquered the Reds, provided the U.S. stayed devoted to the Pacific Theatre and did not assist Russia with war materiel. There admittedly are so many "what ifs" when considering hypothetical WW2 scenarios.

 

Well there were prominent Black objectors during WWII who rehabilitated their images.

Malcolm X 'objected' to both WWII & the Korean War ,but left a well respected legacy.(Alhough he played crazy during WWII ,& according to his Autobiography, told the draft board he couldn't wait to serve to "kill me some *******s") Now there are many "PUBLIC" schools/buildings & streets named in his honor.

Bayard Rustin was a prominent Civil Rights Activist who also object to WWII , but he remained an important leader/activist . Today several PUBLIC schools in NY & even a PUBLIC library are named in his honor.

Elijah Muhammed served four years in prison for his objections ,but grew one of the most powerful Black organizations(NOI) of the century.

Just as those above I don't believe Ali's legacy would have been totally ruined ,but since their was no Malcolm X in 1942 Ali would not have joined the tiny NOI cult of '42 with 500 members .
The NOI was an impressive/powerful voice in the Black community by 63 under Malcolm X(30 thousand or more members ) & young Ali was really impressed.


Really a MOOT point though. Although most Blacks who suffered under slavery,Jim Crow & the lynchings(without punishment) still happening during WWII would tell you that their objections were more than sitting at the front of the bus,segregated water fountains,etc.....
Those guys above were rare ,however, as millions of Blacks served & only a few hundred or thousand objected.

 

What was there to object about in WW2? Never before and never since had there ever been so clear cut an example of good and evil. It's almost like a mathematical equation....if men in the free world hadn't given their lives fighting Nazism and the Imperial Japanese, ultimately there would have been NO Black community in America, needless to say no Jewish community, or any other deemed inferior by the Nazis. So the "concientious objector" crap DOSENT WASH when referring to WW2 and the very real threat facing the so-called "inferior races" of any part of the world the Nazis were able to tread. The three examples you gave of concientious objectors, as well as all others, no matter what race or what cause or reason, are all IGNORANT COWARDS who let others make the sacrifice to defeat the forces of Genocide represented by the Nazis and the Japanese. COWARDS, because they refused to take up arms to fight evil, and IGNORANT because in protesting the wrongs of thir own country, they were giving support to regimes that as any fool knows, was FAR worse.

 

I was responding to your your post which stated that Ali would have "earned a place in the annals of history as a supreme fool for refusing to take up arms"...during WWII. I was only pointing out that Malcom X, Bayard Rustin,Elijah Muhammed(to name a few) were objectors to WWII ,yet became respected near revered leaders who NOW have PUBLIC Schools,Libraries,Streets,etc... named in their honor. I believe Ali's legacy would have also been rehabilitated with time(though not as easy as it was with Vietnam) had he followed the lead of a man whom he loved(Elijah Muhammed) & trusted.

Blacks had served faithfully in WWI also with the expectation(wrongly)that they would earn a place as first class citizens by being patriotic. However, even Black soldiers after/during WWI were actually targeted for Lynching & lynched while wearing their military uniforms:yikes( The book :HIDDEN HEROISM by Robert Edgerton documents some of this). Black soldiers, especially in the South ,had to to be careful about wearing their uniform in public & being targeted by Whites insulted by Blacks wearing 'their' uniform, seeming too proud & actually thinking themselves somehow equal to Whites. Yet millions proudly served during WWI & WWII.
People like Rustin, Malcolm X & Elijah Muhammed(among others) fought tooth & nail to point out the hypocrisy of the US Military/Society which needed to be exposed & history has been fairly kind to them. Just as it would have been to Ali I believe.

 

All the transgressions committed by the United States and the U.S. military against the black men serving in the armed forces..all the shameful attempts to denigrate them and make them second class citizens were and are despicable and inexcusable. That being said, the only option, the only honorable option, for any Black man during that period of WW2 was to serve in the armed forces against the true forces of evil as represented by Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan. There could be no moral or intellectual grounds for failing to do so. Great, prominent Black personalities of that time like Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles and Ray Robinson all did the right thing because they were aware of the nightmare to be unleashed on all of mankind if the Axis forces were to conquer the free world. There was no alternative. To not fight out of any reason other than a physical infirmity was to aid the other side. Then mass executions, concentration camps and ghettoes far more horrible than the kind we have here in America would await all so called "inferior races". Malcolm X, the "honorable" Elijah Muhammad, and other like them were nothing short of fools and moral cowards. I would like to think that Ali would have done the honorable and SANE thing as did Joe Louis and would have represented his country in the fight against the Evil forces that we were up against.