Marciano in the Joe Louis era?

Charles an ex LH past his best 33,
Walcott 37 and 38 had been stopped quite a few times previously.Moore a 40 year old LH,Mathews a hyped lh,later stopped by Cockell.Layne a great KO.
Baers fights stopped by the referee? Schaaf was out for 10 minutes! Campbell was out and gone. Schmeling kod with a right hand.Baer was finished aginst Nova ,thats like saying Louis against Marciano was the Brown Bomber!
Baer, over the hill, had no trouble catching Galento with right hands.

 

I suppose its who you want to beleive, a magazine known for great pics,that is not primarily boxing orientated,or a researched book.I am not familiar with Life really except some of its iconic photos.and I've only read the one book by Skeehan.

 

Older smaller Uzcudon? Paulino was 32 ,195 to Baer's202. not a big disparity.
While we are talking about weight, check out how many men over 200lbs Marciano kod.Cockell205 an ex LH who was hog fat.Louis 36 and 213 3/4 ,14 lbs over his best weight and nearly a decade past his best.Johnny Schkor 2201/2 a trial horse whose record was 22-11-7
Baer kod Comiskey207 1rd,Galento 2441/2 8rds,Hankinson,214,1rd,Foord2081/29rds,Carnera 2631/311rds,Heeney,208 3rds.And Knocked Schaaf 2091/2 out for 10 minutes.
Big punchers?The biggest puchers Marciano met were an old Louis who threw zero right hands, a 37 /38 Walcott who dropped him and a 40 yearold LH Moore, who also dropped him .Any LHv's drop Baer?
Baer met Comiskey 60kos in 73 wins,Schmeling,Galento,Foord 22 kos in 40 wins,Campbell 22kos in 33 wins,Hankinson,39 kos in 45 wins,Griffiths 41 kos in 74 wins and Braddock another good puncher, Baer quit fully conscious, against Louis ,who said , he never hit a man like he hit Baer.and was stopped twice by Nova when he was past it.Baer met punchers at least as good as Marciano and the majority of them bigger men.
For the record I think Marciano beats Baer ,but lets not pretend its a walkover.Baer destroyed a prime Schmeling ,which is better than any win on Marcianos record imo.

 

Well, what happened--Campbell compares to Vingo. Better and quicker medical attention probably saved Vingo. Schaaf--okay.
Of the fights I have seen on film of Baer:

1. Uzcudun--20 round decision loss.
2. Levinsky--20 round decision victory.
3. Schmeling--Schmeling on feet when ref stops bout.
4. Carnera--Carnera on feet when bout ends with Primo apparently giving up.
5. Braddock--15 round decision loss
6. Louis--four round KO defeat
7. Farr--12 round decision loss
8. Foord--KO 8. Foord is the only opponent on film I have seen take the count against Baer
9. Nova--survives Baer's best to stop him on cuts in 11.
10. Comiskey--fight is stopped in first with Comiskey hanging over ropes. He gets up quickly from a right hand, but impressive knockout.
11. Galento--Wide open Tony survives punch after punch without going down before quitting on stool.
12. Nova--survives Baer's best and comes back to stop Baer in 8.

Marciano on film:
1. Layne--takes count and out cold in 6.
2. Louis--dumped through ropes--ref stops fight but Louis could not have gotten up.
3. Savold--Takes bad beating like Galento and quits on stool.
4. Matthews--taken out by two left hooks.
5. Walcott--taken out by one right in 13th.
6. Walcott--taken out for count by right uppercut in 1st.
7. LaStarza--survives knockdown and is floundering when ref stops fight in 11th--similar to Schmeling fight.
8. Charles--15 round decision.
9. Charles--takes count in 8th.
10. Cockell--down three times and floundering when ref stops fight in 9th. One of Marciano's least impressive fights.
11. Moore--takes count in 9th.

1 of Baer's opponents takes count. 6 of Marciano's do, plus Louis. I would say that your not going to give Marciano any credit no matter what he did. For example--Matthews. Marciano is the only one to ever put him down for the count in over 100 fights. The "KO" loss to Cockell came because Matthews suffered a back injury and quit on his stool. Walcott had been stopped once in the last 12 years--the entire length of Baer's career--and that by Louis. Moore was stopped once every 31 fights over his career, a better percentage than the iron-chinned Baer. Louis hadn't been stopped by anyone else for 15 years while fighting the best heavyweights out there. There was no one around who was iron-jawed enough to prove anything to people who want to insist that the best fighters of an integrated era could not match the fighters of a segregated era. I just don't believe that.

 

LIFE may not have been a boxing magazine, but a picture is a picture and the cut just doesn't seem all that bad on the photos. I would tend to believe a picture more than a 30 year old memory. Memories tend to become dramatic.

 

No comment on the size of Marciano's ko victims?
APART FROM COCKELL 5 10 and fat at 209and an old LOUIS WHO DID MARCIANO KO WHO WEIGHED OVER 200 LBS?
Vingo had 17 fights when he fought Marciano ,with just 7 stoppages.
Campbell had 39 fights and 26 kos,yet you think they are comparable?
I say Baer fought BIGGER men who hit just as hard as any Marciano met. I say Baer ' s ko over Schmeling was better than any win marciano had. I say Marciano's Best wins are over men past their prime,two of them ex light heavyweights.

 

Well Baer had lost to Braddock,Riskco,Uzcudun,Tommy Farr Willie Davies and they all weighed under 200lbs and he even lost to Tommy Lougran who weighed in at 183......even Braddock fought most of his career as a lightheavy and Lou Nova weighed in at 202 when he beat Max......I dont think any of those guys that beat Max were in the class of Walcott,Charles or Moore at the stage that they fought Marciano. Funny but in this day of sterioded fighters and atheletes I wonder how much better the Heavys would have been if they refrained from ROIDS ( bigger but not better) Anyway forget that....Moore,Charles and Walcott beat all of the bigger men of that time and Marciano took care of 6"2 1/2 Rex Layne who was a puncher...Charles beat 6'2 Satterfield and 6"3 Wallace...Moore beat 6"3 Valdez and 6"2 Bob Baker by Ko and Walcott beat Ollie Tanberg 6"3 and unbeaten Hein Ten Hoff 6"5 219 and 6"4 216 Johnnny Shkor.....Marciano fought his # 1 contender 5 times and a # 2 contender once. So we can say Marciano fought the best of his time. If we want to pick hairs we can say Marciano fought smaller older men( Moore beat Valdez 2 times( do we really think Valdez would have done better than Moore or do we think the bigger men of there time were better or just bigger. We can say Charle,Moore and Walcott were older and perhaps smaller but they beat the younger bigger guys. ON TOP OF THAT even Ali had a harder time with the smaller men of his day Jones,Cooper,Frazier, and Holmes had Spinks and Tyson who were not large men....I think beating the men who beat the top guys to get there is the most important thing.....and I think Walcott, and Charles and Mabey Moore would have handled Max S or Max B and Marciano would have walked threw any of the big guys inhis era that lost to Walcott,Moore or Charles or Lastarza

 

1. "Let's not pretend its a walkover"--who ever said it was.

2. How good were Baer's big punching opponents--Hank Hankinson-had lost 7 of his previous 8, six by knockout. In his four fights leading up to the Baer bout, he was ko'd by Johnny Whiters (1), Tiger Jack Fox (1), Phil Brubacher (1), and Chuck Crowell (2). He had lasted 5 rounds in four fights. A few years earlier Hankinson had been a decent fighter and he did stop old George Godfrey, but he was finished. Tiger Jack Fox was, by the way, one of your despised aging lightheavies and weighed 179 when he ko'd the 213 lb Hankinson.
Ben Foord--with 22 ko's in 59 fights, I wonder is anyone considered Foord much of a puncher. He had been the British Empire champion and had beaten Loughran, Gains, and Jack Petersen. He was coming off losses to Neusel and Farr going into the Baer fight, and would follow it with losses to Schmeling, Neusel, and a ko loss to Eddie Phillips.
Tony Galento--coming off a stoppage of Nova in a controversially dirty fight, he was actually rated at the top of the division. Interesting that you focus on Cockell being fat when blubbery Tony retired the cup on this point. Back in 1936, the 220 lb Galento had been stopped in 4 rounds by the 168 lb Al Gainer, another despised lightheavy.
Pat Comiskey--a month short of his 20th birthday when he fought Baer. He was a prospect, but an ex-champion was certainly a big step up for a young man who's best previous efforts were splitting a pair of eight round fights with journeyman Steve Dudas. He went on to have a decent career, breaking into the ratings in 1947, but most of his victories were over second-tier guys. When he tried to move up, he lost more often than not.
Tom Heeney--He was a puncher? Wouldn't have guessed it off his record. Baer got credit for a knockout when ref Jack Dempsey and timekeeper Arthur Donovan screwed up the count, reaching ten at eight with Heeney on one knee waiting to get up. Heeney was pretty much losing all the time by this point, and a year later was stopped by the 168 lb Jimmy Slattery, another lightheavy.
Frankie Campbell--Campbell had been #13 at middle back in 1925 by RING MAGAZINE, but his career had largely petered out, and he had been flattened by the best fighter he had fought, the lightheavy Charley Belanger. In fairness, he was on a winning streak against second-raters when he moved up to heavy and lost to Baer.

There, of course, are also the giants Carnera and Santa, but other than perhaps Carnera and Galento, I don't think most of these guys were all that good. Other than perhaps Galento again, and to some extent Comiskey, I don't find them that impressive a group of punchers, certainly not more dangerous overall than Walcott, Moore, Charles, Louis (even at 37), Savold, Matthews, Reynolds, etc

 

I missed a couple of men. It is interesting you think the former lightheavies Braddock and Griffith are dangerous punchers in a sense that Moore, Charles, and Matthews are not.

Lou Nova--Nova was considered a coming champ on the basis of his destructions of Baer. He went out meekly against Louis and was then stopped twice by Savold. Looking at his record, he had 31 ko's in 63 fights overall. The only other top men besides Baer he ever stopped was Gunnar Barlund. In retrospect, Nova doesn't seem nearly as good as people judged. Is this perhaps because they were overrating Baer and his chin to begin with?

 

So because A beats B ,C will too? thats bad logic ,especially in boxing.
Why mention all the contenders that Marciano DID NOT FIGHT? And what has their height to do with their weight ?
Farr weighed 198 for the first Baer fight and 2081/2 for the second.Rex Layne was 6 1 NOT 6 3 1/2. and he weighed 193 for Marciano.
The Davies fight with Baer was a 6 rd Exhibition.Schkor was a journey man with a lot of losses on his record NO WAY was he a contender or even close to it.What has Ali ,or any other fighter to do with this subject?
You can say you think Marciano would have beaten all those guys but you cannot state it because he NEVER met them.
Similarly you can say that Jim Jeffries ,who wore down a clutch of smaller ,greatly outweighed, challengers ,would have done the same to men his own size or bigger ,but you cannot state it because he did NOT do it.For the record ,I think Marciano would have beaten Baker,Wallace, Gilliam ,Valdes,and Satterfield ,BUT I DONT KNOW HE WOULD HAVE,because he did not meet them.He defended against a 37 and 38 year old a 32 going on33 year old former LH ,a LH in Mathews and a fat former LH in Cockell and he finished with a 40year old LH.That I can state because it happened.

 

But thsos old gizzers sure beat Baker, Wallace, Valdes ete.

What would Marciano's ranking be if he fought these guys, beat them, but did not defend against Charles, and Archie Moore??

 

Where did I say Moore ,Charles or Mathews were not dangerous punchers? SHOW ME.
Griffiths not a puncher?Griffith's purported record,inspired awe and incredulity,in those who heard it: 55 wins and over 40 kos .Fortunatley Braddock was as fearless as his manager,and voiced no qualms -though what he saw,when Griffiths arrived in New York,two days before the bout must have given him some pause for thought.The Iowan went straight to Stillman's Gym in midtown New York,boxed five hard rounds with several sparring partners and flattened each of them.His power shocked even the hard bitten trainers in attendance.You dont think Braddock was a dangerous puncher? I never rmentioned Nova at all in my post Why do you bring him up several times? .You bring up Galento ,vis a vis Cockell ,was Cockell in any way as durable or hard hitting as Galento?
Is it against the law to disagree with you,because it would seem so?
I say Baer hit harder than Marciano,and had a better chin ,you disagree ok.

 

1. Okay. You never said Moore etc were not dangerous--you certainly implied they were not as dangerous as Baer's opponents.

2. Griffith--He had 41 ko's in 74 victories and 91 fights. He ko'd the fading McTigue at lightheavy, and Roper, Heeney, and Von Poret at heavy. This might have awed them in '28, but he looks like just an ordinary former lightheavy to me.

3. If you didn't mention Nova, I will still bring him up. What type of puncher he was is relevant to Baer. He stopped Baer twice.

4. Was Cockell as durable or as hard-hitting as Galento. No, but he was a much better boxer. He would have a good shot at outpointing Galento. I would rate a fight between them a toss-up.

5. "Is it against the law to disagree with you, because it would seem so?"
You are maintaining that an undefeated champion who cleaned out the division in his era is at best on par with or inferior to an erratic champion from an earlier era who was often beaten even by ordinary contenders, had a brief reign without even one successful defense, and faded at a rather young age. You have maintained in one post or another that Baer had a bigger punch, a better chin, and more stamina. Why are you surprised that someone might disagree with you? I thought the purpose of this board was to discuss such disagreements.

6. "I say Baer hit harder than Marciano, and had a better chin, you disagree Ok"

Yes, I do, and I presented historical arguments to back up my disagreement.

 

I implied nothing .I said Marciano's best wins are over men under 200lbs ,and past their prime.
Baer was stopped 3 times in 81 fights ,since you are determined to bring up Nova lets look at those fights,in the first one Baer was [for him] in decent shape ] though his hands were bad ,the fight was stopped on a badly lacerated cut lip.Baer was not down.The second fight Baer was 10lbs overweight ,it was his swan song,he dropped Nova early but couldn't finish him after taking counts he was rescued by the referee.Against Louis he quit fully conscious kneeling ,listening to the count.Three stoppages in 81 fights,two of them when he was on the way out.If Marciano had fought past his prime would he have remained ,unbeaten ? Baer kod a prime Schmeling which of Marciano's wins equals that?
Braddock said that Baer hit harder than Louis,but Walcott said Marciano had better one shot power than Louis.You pays your money and takes your choice.I think Marciano wears Baer down eventually ,but I like presenting the other side. One thing I would bet on ,Baer would have Marciano on the deck at some point.
ps You would only surprise me if you were in agreement with me.

 

1. "If Marciano had fought past his prime"---Marciano and Baer both had their last fights at 32. Baer's loss to Farr came at 28 and his first loss to Nova at 30. I think this is just a double standard. Baer lost fights throughout his career.

2. "Three stoppages in 81 fights"--three more than Marciano suffered.

3. "Baer ko'd a prime Schmeling"--Yes, and Steve Hamas defeated Schmeling in Schmeling's next fight. I don't think that makes Hamas a likely winner over Marciano.
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This is an aside offered without comment. This is Schmeling on the losses to Baer and Hamas in his autobiography. Schmeling blamed both defeats on his being "off" rather than his opponents.

"I also told myself that I hadn't been defeated by better boxers. In my normal form I would have beaten Baer and Hamas without that much trouble."

MAX SCHMELING: AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY--Bonus Books 1998, page 90.

This is interesting but I wouldn't read anything into it except a bruised ego.
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I think the biggest win argument has one flaw. You can't defeat anyone you can't fight. Marciano had no chance to defeat Schmeling, just as Louis had no chance of defeating Jack Johnson, Mike Tyson, or Lennox Lewis. The wins over these men by Hart, Douglas, and McCall might be viewed as better than any single Louis win, but I don't see any of them being in Louis' class.