Marciano in the Joe Louis era?

1. I think "prime" is an abstraction which confuses rather than helps thinking. Sugar Ray Robinson was 35 in 1955. Bobo Olson was 27. Archie Moore was 37 in 1954. Harold Johnson was 26. Dick Tiger was 40 in 1969. Nino Benvenuti was 31. Carlos Monzon was 35 in 1977. Rodrigo Valdez was 30.

So Robinson, Moore, Tiger, and Monzon are by age "past their primes" while Olson, Johnson, Benvenuti, and Valdez are by age at or near their primes. What are we supposed to draw from this? Is anyone going to deny that a man who beat the Robinson, Moore, Tiger, and Monzon of these fights is more impressive than a man who beat the Olson, Johnson, Benvenuti, and Valdez of these fights?

2. Size--Prior to the 1960's there were very few great fighters over 200 lbs in top shape. Jeffries. Johnson--but Johnson weighed only 196 when he beat Burns at almost 31 years of age-- Wills, and Louis. Willard and Carnera were huge but mediocre. Baer had talent, but ended up with a mediocre career also. The fact is that most of the best fighters weighed under 200 lbs in top shape. As for Marciano, there certainly is no evidence that big fellows gave him trouble. He fought 3 men over 220 lbs and knocked all of them out, fought five men over 210 lbs and knocked all of them out, and fought eleven men over 200 lbs and knocked all of them out.

The issue isn't pure age and certainly not an abstraction such as "prime," nor is it size. If an old man can defeat a young man the old man is the better fighter. If a small man can defeat a big man the small man is the better fighter. Walcott and Moore were incumbent champions coming off some of the biggest, or the biggest, wins of their careers. Charles was slipping some, but he was the same age as Ali when Ali defeated Foreman and he had shown he could still pull off big wins. Louis had gone back a long ways. Still, this hardly proves that this group is somehow easier to sweep than the top fighters Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, or Louis defeated. All of Marciano's top opponents were or had been great fighters and all were still active and winning when he fought them.

 

They both had remarkable careers in different ways. I might ask about Louis if he had Marciano's career. How would he have done after losing four years to the service and starting his amateur career at 24 and his professional career at 25. He certainly wouldn't have held the title as long nor made as many defenses nor defeated as many ranked contenders. He would have lost his prime physical years to his learning stage. Would Louis have become champion? Probably, but we really don't know how his not starting young might have effected him. Would he have gone undefeated? Unknowable. My guess is he would not have been quite the fighter nor put up quite the record he did in the 1930's.

If Marciano is back in the thirties, he might start his career much earlier and actually have become a better fighter than he was in the fifties as he would have learned his craft as a young man. Undefeated? Unknowable.
But if you just switch Louis and Marciano I think Marciano does become champion without much doubt and enjoys a good reign up to WWII. As a swarmer, could he have come back after a four year layoff?--I doubt it.
If Louis is present in the 1930's, I don't know if Marciano beats him. If he does, he might go undefeated up to WWII.

 

I think the question was how would Rocky do if he fought in the same era as Louis did. This is what I put down comparing Rocky against the opponents Louis fought.

If Rocky fought the same boxers at the same time frame as Louis did, or at the same age as Louis did, he would have had some problems keeping a perfect record and here's why.

Rocky fought his 1st top 10 contender in his 26th bout when he won a close split decision against LaStarza. He fought another 10 bouts before he fought another top 10 contender when he stopped Rex Layne. When he fought Moore that was only the 11th time Rocky ever fought a boxer that was rated in the top 10 when he fought them.

Louis fought his 1st top 10 contender in his 12th bout when he stopped Lee Ramage. He would box 9 more top 10 contenders before he fought Braddock for the title. That was Louis's 36th pro bout. So after 36 bouts, Rocky fought 2 top 10 contenders and Louis fought 11. Also, Rocky fought 49 bouts and Louis fought 36 and they both faced 11 top 10 contenders. The time Louis had 49 bouts, he faced a total of 21 top 10 contenders.

If Rocky fought Top 10 contenders as fast as Louis did, he might a had some problems. Rocky learned as he went along and his management brought him along slowly. Louis fought Baer in his 21st bout, Rocky was boxing Ted Lowry in his 21st bout and most people thought Lowry won. What if Rocky was boxing Baer at that time instead of Lowry?

If you go by age, it gets even worse for Rocky.

At the age Louis became Champion, Rocky was still an Amateur.

Of course if Rocky was in his prime when he fought Baer, Schmeling, and any other opponent Louis fought, I do believe he would have come out on top every time. The only one that would have given him trouble would be Billy Conn. I think Rocky would have caught up with Conn, like Louis did, BUT he would have some trouble the same way Louis did.

 

I agree with all you said. I was just putting each of them in the other ones time frame. I went by what they did during their careers. Louis started younger and he did box much better opponents then Rocky did earlier in their careers. If Rocky fought the same opponents at the same time frame as Louis, he would most likely have been beaten, don't you agree?

 

Louis was a nearly unique prodigy. He had a excellent amateur background, but no one got in the ring with top level competition so soon after turning pro and fought the very best men at such a young age. I do not think Marciano could match him in any way on this score.

If Louis wasn't there--I think if brought along properly, and with a better amateur background Marciano could have moved up faster, still probably wins the title and I think has a good shot at going unbeaten up to WWII. As a smallish swarmer, he would probably be too old to be successful after the war when well into his thirties and after the long layoff. He might be able to get past the faded Conn and Mauriello in 1946, though, but not Walcott.

If Louis is there, they meet in the late thirties. A Marciano who started younger and had a better background might well have ended up a better fighter. The least one can say is that he would have been Louis' toughest opponent.

Bottom line--Other than Louis himself, I don't think the heavyweights of the pre-WWII Louis era were a better bunch than the heavyweights of the Marciano era. Marciano certainly might have gotten past Schmeling, Baer, and the 170 lb Conn without suffering a loss.

 

You can only go by what was, you can't go by what could have been. If you do, you can do that with anyone.

You can put Frazier, Tyson and some others in Rocky's shoes and you would find it hard finding any opponent that Rocky fought, beating them.

 

This would depend on when Rocky fought them. If Rocky fought Baer in his 21st bout, like Louis did, I really believe that Baer would have been the victor. Remember in Rocky's 21st bout, he almost lost to Ted Lowry and most people thought he did.

 

Their backgrounds are so different. Louis had 54 amateur fights, so he was fighting Baer around his 80th pro or amateur fight. Marciano fought Lowry around his 30 to 35th fight, counting amateur and professional. Quite a difference in experience. Still, I am not disputing that Louis was a prodigy and there is no reason to suspect Marciano could have been, even starting young.

It seems you are mixing up two different things here. You are simply focusing on who was great young, or a prodigy, but that doesn't mean one ends up the greatest. A lot of baseball pitchers were better than Grove or Koufax or Spahn before the age of 25. That doesn't mean they were better pitchers at their best. The best NFL quarterback is not the one who was the best college quarterback or rookie quarterback but the one who ends up best at his peak. Nor do I think Terry McGovern is necessarily better than Sandy Saddler although he was almost certainly a better fighter at 20 or 21.

 

Good points but Louis suffered due to his Army service too ,from 1942 -1944 he had 2 defences ,both for Relief funds , the Army and Navy.Marciano's style would have made it very difficult for him to stay on top as long as Louis ,when he retired he was about to decline imo,had he reigned during Louis's time,he might have dropped the ball at some point. The Walcott who went so close against Louis might have beaten Rocky.

 

Yes, guessing what someone does in another era is wild speculation, especially if you consider that they would often have to grow up in a world of vastly inferior nutrition and medical care. About all that makes sense to me is comparing how each man did in his own era against other men of that era. Discussing across eras is intellectually interesting sometimes but really only the blind leading the blind.

 

I think a 33 year old Marciano would have lost to Walcott in 1947.

I am thinking of a Marciano who took 1943 to 1945 off. I think such a Marciano would have gone back quite a bit. The Marciano of 1956 would have had a better chance, but there is no reason to think he could have fought into old age with anything like the success Walcott had.

 

There's a good chance of it ,imo.

 

Good point, BUT I am going by what was, not what could have been. If Rocky fought at his prime against all of Louis's opponents, I do believe that he would have beaten everyone.

You can also do that with any other boxer at any time too.

I believe Louis fought better opponents then Rocky did during their Pro careers. Here's some of the STATS that I came up with.

Louis fought 43 different Opponents 54 times in 71 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 76.056%

Rocky fought 13 different Opponents 16 times in 49 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 32.653%

Louis fought 34 out of 71 opponents while they were rated in the top 10. He beat 31 of them 43.662%

Rocky fought 11 out of 49 opponents while they were rated in the top 10. He beat all 11 of them 22.44898%.

Louis fought boxers that had an average pro record of 38-10-2.5 when he fought them.

Rocky fought boxers that had an average pro record of 29.7-10.16-1.78 when he fought them.

Lets look at the best boxers Rocky fought:

Rocky fought LaStarza twice (1950 & 1953) and he was very good. A lot of people thought LaStarza beat Rocky in their 1st bout. Rocky would stop him in the return bout.

He also fought Walcott (1952 & 1953) and Charles (both in 1954) twice each. Charles had 90 bouts at that time and he had seen better days.

In his 1st bout with Rocky, Charles fought very well, and it was a lot closer then a lot of people thought it would be and people wanted to see a return go. Rocky stopped Charles in the return bout.

In the 1st Walcott bout going into the 13th round, the judges had Jersey Joe ahead 7-4, 7-5 and 8-4. Rocky stopped Jersey Joe in the return bout in 1 round.

He only fought another 10 boxers that were ever in the 10 top by Ring at one time or another.

Phil Muscato (December 1949) was last rated in the top 10 in 1948, he fought Rocky the next year after losing 4 in a row and 5 out of his last 6 before boxing Rocky.

Johnny Shkor (September 1950) was 29-18-2 at the time he fought Rocky in 1950. He was last rated in 1947. He just got stopped by Walcott and lost his last 7 of 11 bouts.

Rex Layne (July 1951) had a pro record of 34-1-2 with 24 knockouts going into the bout with Rocky. He was a very good boxer, in fact he was one of the best at that time.

Freddy Beshore (August 1951) was last rated in October 1950, Rocky fought him in August of 1951. He lost 7 of his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky.

Joe Louis (October 1951) who was still good, BUT way past his prime when he fought Marciano. His record was 61-1 with 52 KO's in his 1st 62 bouts. In his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky, Louis was 8-1 with only 3 KO's

Lee Savold (February 1952) was last rated in 1951, Rocky stopped him in 1952. Savold was also stopped 9 times before his bout with Rocky, including one by an aging Joe Louis.

Bernie Reynolds (May 1952), who lost 4 out of his last 6 bouts before boxing Rocky in 1952. Reynolds was past his prime as the last time he was rated was 1949.

Harry Kid Matthews (July 1952) was an excellent boxer with an excellent record, he was 51-0-1 with 36 KO's in his last 52 bouts before he faced Rocky, but he was really was a Light Heavyweight.

Don Cockell (May 1955) beat Matthews 3 times and LaStarza. He was also stopped 6 times before he fought Rocky, including a bout with Randy Turpin, a Middleweight, in which he out weigh Turpin by 12 pounds. He was dropped 3 times in the bout.

Archie Moore (September 1955), he was one of the Greatest Light Heavyweights ever.

So if you go by this, the only boxers that were rated in the top 10 when he fought them were Walcott, Charles and LaStarza twice each, Louis, Moore, Layne, Matthews and Cockell. So that means he fought only 8 boxers, 11 times that were rated in the top 10 at the time he fought them.

Some might point to Carmine Vingo. He was 16-1 with 7 KO's when he fought Rocky. In his last 7 bouts before his bout with Rocky, he only had 1 KO and that was against an opponent that was making his Pro debut. George Washington lasted the distance with Vingo and he had a record of 8-16 while being KO'ed 6 times, before he fought Vingo. He was stopped a total of 17 times before his career finished. Plus, Vingo just turned 20 years old just 2 days before he fought Rocky AND he never fought a scheduled bout that was over 6 rounds before he fought him.

 

You have done your research! How about this Louis never fought a south paw.

 

The bottom line is this.

You can imagine a timeline where Marciano beats Baer in 36 and a timeline where he beats Walcott in 47 but you cant imagine a timeline where he beats both.

The part of Louis's resume that Marcaino could never match would be his longevity.