Interesting. To critique this: 1. Ever rated doesn't mean you are any good when the man fights you. Also this puts fighting an incumbent champion or a top contender on the same level as fighting a man who was a fringe contender years earlier and has long since disappeared from the rankings. I remember dicussing Hank Hankinson earlier. He was the #7 contender in 1935. When Baer fought him in 1939 he had lost 7 of 8 and 4 straight by knockout, getting into the second round only once. Tom Heeney was another one who had gone downhill badly. Muscato was a similar case with Marciano. 2. Also, it is important to note who you beat as well as who you fight. Norton, for example only beat 12 of those 20 ever rated opponents. Only 4 he defeated were rated when he fought them. Foreman defeated 22 of his 27 ever rated opponents and only 7 he defeated were rated when he fought them. Walcott won at most 22 against ever rated opponents and was 12-13 against men rated when he fought them. Schmeling was 14-5-1 against ever rated opponents. Patterson was 23-8-1. Liston won 21 of 25 and Tyson won 21 of 26. Holmes 24 of 30. So how do these percentages of victories stack up. Closer. Norton 12 of 50--24% Foreman 22 of 81-- 27% Walcott--22 of 71--31% Schmeling--14 of 70--20% Patterson--23 of 64--36% Liston--21 of 54--39% Holmes--24 of 72--33% Marciano--16 of 49--32.65% However, I think what matters is how many victories did you have over fighters rated when you fought them. Of those I know, off the Boxing Register: Norton--4 of 50--8% Liston--8 of 54--15% Foreman--7 of 81--9% Walcott--12 of 71--17% Patterson--14 of 64--22% Schmeling--6 of 70--9% Marciano--11 of 49--22% And to really get serious, how many of these victims were really top contenders, defined at least by being in the top five. Marciano fought very few fringe contenders. Once he started fighting top men, he fought mostly top men. Layne, Louis, Matthews, Walcott (2), LaStarza, Charles (2), Cockell, and Moore were in the top five when Marciano fought them. That is 10 of 49 fights, or 20%. Certainly some champions fought more in quantity and a very few in percentage, but Marciano is going hold his own with most in this comparision.
Victories over top ten fighters is one half of it, but what about defeats. Joey Maxim is, I think, something like 22-20 against rated fighters. Michael Spinks is 13-1. Bob Foster is 13-6-1. Which one do you rate the most impressive. Is Jake LaMotta at 24-14-2 more impressive than Carlos Monzon at 15-0? I also think that to calibrate this well, you have to study the really top men-champions and the top four or so contenders. Generally you don't rise that high without doing something very impressive. A lot of fringe contenders who get a rating for a year or two probably aren't necessarily better than many men who weren't rated. Get to #1 or #2 and you are probably really a seriously top fighter more often than not. On Marciano, one impressive fact I noticed about him was that he fought few fringe types. He went directly from fighting journeymen to fighting top men. Layne, Louis, Matthews, Walcott, LaStarza, Charles, Cockell, and Moore were rated near the top of the heavyweight or lightheavyweight divisions. Of the 16 fights he had against men ever rated, 12 were against men rated #2 contender or better in the lightheavy or heavyweight divisions and 10 were against men thus rated when he fought them.
I would certainly like to know the fighter who had 171 fights against top men. My guess is that he was someone who lost a great deal.
I also have them STATS as well. So far I rated a total of 90 of them. Ali is #8 Louis is #9 Patterson is #34 Walcott is #49 Marciano is at #51 Sharkey is at #55 Baer is at #64 Frazier is at #66 Liston at #69 Foreman is at #74 Schmeling is at #82 Norton is at #84 Johansson is at #87 All of them are going to go down a little as I put in some of the oldtimers. I also have to include Holmes, Lewis etc. By this Rocky is somewhat in the middle. When I take the contenders and I include the boxers that were Champions in other weight classes. NOTE: I did find some small mistakes in the Boxing Register.
Actually he won 87 times against a top 10 contender when they were rated in the top 10 out of some 106 bouts. I have to check out several others too, so that total can go up. All total he did box 171 times against boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another. He is also in the International Boxing Hall of Fame.
What exactly is this? Victories over top 10 contenders? The BOXING REGISTER lists Patterson at 14 victories over top ten contenders. This puts him that far ahead of Walcott at 12? or is there some different info? Very interesting work. Keep it up.
I assumed it can't be Langford or Greb, as there were no ratings, unless this is using modern computer ratings of some sort. This sounds sort of like Greb if you make up ratings and add in newspaper decisions.
YES! I thought the same thing when I did my research. I even double checked it. Here's all the top 10 contenders he fought: Opponent-Time Rated-Months Rated-Highest rating-# of WINS jimmy Delaney 2/25-2/27 3 8 1 * jack Delaney 2/25 –1/29 10 1 1 * young stribling x2 2/25-2/33 54 1 1 ** jimmy slattery x7 2/25-2/32 50 1 7 ****** leo lomski x6 2/26-4/31 34 1 5 ****** george manley x2 4/28-4/33 29 1 2 ** king levinsky 11/30-8/36 52 2 0 * jim braddock x2 2/28-4/38 48 C 2 ** cuban bobby brown x4 7/28-10/29 12 5 3 **** tiger jack payne x4 9/28-8/29 9 6 3 **** pete latzo x2 2/25-7/31 28 C 2 ** lou scozza x7 8/28-5/34 58 1 5 ******* charley belanger x3 5/28-10/31 27 5 2 *** fred lenhart x3 9/29-5/38 41 2 2 *** billy jones x3 8/29-12/34 49 1 3 *** dave maier 1/32-8/32 8 1 1 * al gainer x2 11/30-2/42 98 1 2 ** bob olin 12/30-2/39 47 C 1 * joe knight x2 8/31-5/36 54 1 2 ** adolf heuser 4/32-2/40 40 1 1 * bob godwin x7 12/31-5/35 36 1 7 ******* bob pastor 12/36-2/43 67 1 1 * jimmy adamick x2 2/38-2/39 8 6 0 ** lou nova 2/38-8/45 50 1 1 * john henry lewis x5 1/33-1/40 86 C 4 ***** tony shucco x2 8/32-2/43 48 1 1 ** clyde chastain x2 4/30-6/34 5 1 2 ** mickey walker x2 2/25-9/34 67 C 2 ** johnny miler x3 1/35-2/35 2 7 1 *** leo kelly x4 3/35-9/37 19 1 2 **** tiger jack fox x3 6/37-11/44 36 1 0 *** tiger flowers x3 2/25-2/28 4 1 3 *** johnny wilson x2 2/25-2/25 1 5 0 ** jock malone 2/25-12/29 4 6 1 * dave shade x2 2/25-2/35 78 1 2 ** roland todd 2/26-2/26 1 9 0 * phil kaplan x2 2/26-9/30 18 2 2 ** tommy milligan 2/26-9/28 4 2 1 * jack mcvey x2 2/26-4/31 37 3 2 ** frankie schoell x6 2/25-6/29 15 6 6 ****** ace hudkins 2/26-2/32 36 1 1 * harry ebbets 4/28-8/33 42 1 1 * harry greb 2/25-2/26 2 1 1 * 110 then a few others who were also top 10 but not sure about when in the career maxie fought them roscoe toles 6/37-5/43 49 4 0 * joe Anderson x4 2/27-12/28 6 4 1 **** yale okun x2 2/26-6/32 8 2 1 ** osk till x2 2/27-4/29 2 6 1 ** lee ramage x4 5/32-5/37 21 7 3 **** leroy haynes x2 4/36-2/39 11 3 0 ** larry johnson x3 2/30-2/32 16 1 2 ** thats well in excess of 100 fights against the best middles, light heavies and heavies. plenty of hall of famers as well. 128 Also, Young Johnny Burns George Courtney Allentown Joe Gans Frank Moody Young Tony Marullo Tiger Thomas Harry Dillon Leo Williams 2 Joe Sekyra George Hoffman Abie Bain Joe Banovic 2 Dick Daniels Gordon Fortenbberry 2 Don “Red” Barry Natie Brown KO Christner Rosy Rosales 2 Wilson Dunn Charley Massera 2 Leroy Brown Frank Rowsey 3 Oscar Rankins Ford Smith Hank Hankinson 2 Alberto Santiago Lovell Bob Nestell Al Ettore Battling Bozo 4 Patsy Perroni Owen Phelps Art Weigand 171
This is amazing. Rosenbloom has almost twice as many victories over rated opponents as Sugar Ray Robinson or Archie Moore! I never gave him much thought, perhaps because he was well known in movies and on the television as a comic.
Yes, he fought a total of 82 different top 10 contenders. I have to double and triple check all this out BUT right now I have Maxie 1st at 171, followed by Henry Armstrong, Midget Wolgast and Freddie Miller who all have 109, Archie Moore with 108, Sugar Ray Robinson with 106, Tony Canzoneri had 104. Benny Bass has 100 and he started his career in 1919, so he could of had a few more if they had ratings back then. This goes for Tommy Loughran too, who had 98 and started his career in 1919. Like I said, I have to check this all out before I make this official.