Marciano in the Joe Louis era?

Ellis had a top amateur background and he was over 21 when he turned pro. One could argue he was green when he fought Mims in 1961 and perhaps when he fought Hank in 1962, but the defeats in 1964 to Carter, Benton, and Don Fullmer are hard to explain away. Ellis was 24 and had been a pro three years. And the middles he was losing to were by no means the best out there. Griffith, Tiger, Giardello, Benvenuti, and probably Archer were the top middleweights of the time.
Ellis had a surprisingly mediocre career prior to 1967. He lost to the best men he faced and none of his victories were particularly impressive. Then he went on a run which saw him defeat Johnny Persol, Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena, Jerry Quarry, and Floyd Patterson in successive fights, pushing into the top echelon of the heavyweight division alongside Ali and Frazier in 1968. And that was pretty much it. He lost badly to Frazier in 1970 and Ali in 1971. His only victory after 1968 over a name fighter was a decision over an aging George Chuvalo. He won quite a few, but always against journeymen, leading to money fights he lost to Shavers, Lyle, Kirkman, etc.
Ellis was a mediocre middle who skipped right past the lightheavy division to clean out the better heavies other than Ali and Frazier. There is nothing in his record after 1970 to indicate he was still anything but mediocre. His success calls into the question the quality of the heavyweights under Ali and Frazier during the Frazier years.

As for Cockell, 9 of his 14 defeats came before the age of 21 years 5 months, about the age Ellis was when he started fighting as a pro. Cockell started his own pro career at 17. Cockell had a pretty good run from from 1950 to 1955 winning 20 of 22 with 12 of his victories over men rated at one time or another. Four of his subsequent five defeats were to rated fighters. Critics could make the telling points that his defeats, however, were generally one-sided beatings with Cockell cut often and knocked down frequently, while most of his rated victims were either past their best or fringe types. He rose high in the heavyweight ratings, but did so mainly by coming in through the back door, edging LaStarza and Matthews in disputed decisions. He never was the "player" in the heavyweight division of his era that Ellis was in his.

Comparision of records against men who appeared in RING rankings (as close as I can tell)

Ellis--Defeated----Wilfie Graves, Holly Mims, Rory Calhoun, Johnny Halafihi, Hubert Hilton, Billy Daniels, Johnny Persol, Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena, Jerry Quarry, Floyd Patterson, George Chuvalo

Lost----Holly Mims, Henry Hank, Hurricane Carter, Don Fullmer, George Benton, Joe Frazier (2), Muhammad Ali, Earnie Shavers, Boone Kirkman, Ron Lyle, Joe Bugner

Drew----Larry Middleton

Total record against ever rated fighters---12-12-1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cockell--Defeated----Ginger Saad, Johnny Williams (2), Lloyd Marshall (2), Albert Yvel, Freddie Beshore, Nick Barone, Albert Finch, Tommy Farr, Roland LaStarza, Harry Matthews (3)

Lost----Johnny Williams, Jimmy Slade, Randy Turpin, Rocky Marciano, Nino Valdes

Total record against ever rated fighters---14-5

Defenders of Ellis can point to the fact that he lost several fights when past thirty and on the way down. Defenders of Cockell can point to his losing five fights as a teenager and a total of nine fights by the time he had barely turned 21.

 

Yes, I know Neumann very well too. His son Patrick just started boxing in the New York Golden Gloves and he invited me down to see him. As far as Bey goes I agree with you BUT his first 5 loses were against some of the top contenders Champions in the division. He also won the USBA heavyweight title by beating Greg Page who was rated as high as #2 in the World. He lost to Holmes (Champion), Berbick (WBC Champion), Smith (rated #2), Bugner (rated #3) & Biggs (rated #6). After that he was done, actually he was done before that.

 

Ellis was better than Cockell. Cockell had no chance of being heavyweight champ in the era Ellis fought in - he wouldn't make the top 10 list. He would lose to fighters Ellis beat e.g. Chuvalo, Patterson, Quarry and Bonavena. Lyle and Shavers losses were at the end of his career and they both would destroy Cockell.

 

I believe that Ellis fought and beat much better opponents then Cockell did. If you compare just the Heavyweight Contenders each of them beat, Ellis had a much better resume. Here's a list of opponents that they beat and how they were rated.

Ellis:
Holly Mims (rated #2 in the Middleweight Class, last rated in 1960, Ellis beat him in 1962)
Rory Calhoun (rated #3 in the Middleweight Class, last rated in 1961, Ellis beat him in 1962),
Johnny Halafihi (rated #6 in the Light Heavyweight Class, last rated in 1961, Ellis beat him in 1963)
Hubert Hilton (rated #7)
Billy Daniels (rated #6, last rated in 1965, Ellis beat him in 1966)
Johnny Persol (rated #5 as a Light Heavyweight and #9 as a Heavyweight)
Leotis Martin (rated #1)
Oscar Bonavena (rated #2)
Jerry Quarry (rated #1)
Floyd Patterson (former Champion)
George Chuvalo (rated #3)
Larry Middleton (rated #7) DRAW

Cockell:
Ginger Saad (was rated #7 in the Middleweight division for 2 months in 1939, he fought Cockell in 1947)
Johnny Williams (2) (rated #5)
Lloyd Marshall (2) Rated #1 in the Middleweight/Light Heavyweight Class)
Albert Yvel Rated #9 as a Light Heavyweight for 4 months)
Freddie Beshore (rated #9 for 3 months, last rated in 1950, Cockell beat him in 1951)
Nick Barone (rated #5 in the Light Heavyweight Class)
Albert Finch (rated #8 in the Light Heavyweight Class for 4 months)
Tommy Farr (rated #2 and last time he was rated was in 1941 and he fought Cockell in 1953)
Roland LaStarza (rated #1)
Harry Matthews (3) (rated #1 as a Light Heavyweight, also rated as a Heavyweight).

 

I am not disputing that Cockell is not as good a fighter and did not defeat as many top men. What is interesting to me is that a man as mediocre at middleweight as Ellis can then sweep many of the top heavyweights in 1967 and 1968. Cockell was a decent fighter who got to the top of the division in his era basically through some luck and coming up the back stairway by his wins over LaStarza and Matthews. Ellis on the other hand might actually be viewed as having the best claim to the title (if Ali is considered out of the picture) from 1968 to 1970 as he entered and won a tourney that Frazier refused to enter and beat the best men Frazier defended against in that period, Bonavena and Quarry, as well as Patterson and Martin. Frazier gained his recognition with a victory over the undefeated but untested Mathis, not a top man.

One factual question--when was Leotis Martin rated #1--was this after he beat Liston?

 

"Cockell had not chance of being heavyweight champ in the era Ellis fought in"

Cockell did not have any real chance of being champion in his own day. If they held a tournament in 1955 like the one Ellis won in 1968, with Marciano and Moore out, what would Cockell's chances have been of winning? Slim and none in my estimation.

But Ellis won such a tournament in 1968. That is my point. Would you favor Ellis to win a similar tournament in 1955? I think he would be a real long shot at best. Valdes and Baker were huge men who could box. Holman and Satterfield could really punch. How would Ellis do against the freaky Jackson? And if Harold Johnson is in the tournament, I make him a strong favorite over Ellis.

 

I agree, it would be an uphill battlr for Jimmy and I dont like his chances

 

I believe so. He was rated from September, 1967 to July, 1970, for a total of 25 months.

I also think Ellis would have done pretty well if there was a Tournament in 1955. Anyone who beat all the top heavyweights as he did, I would have to give him a pretty good shot.

 

"I also think Ellis would have done pretty well"

Baker and Valdes and were so much bigger than anyone Ellis defeated who had pretty good boxing skills. It is also hard for me to see a guy who lost to Don Fullmer then beating Harold Johnson. This is, of course, unknowable, but I wouldn't favor Ellis by any means. My main point is that it is not convincing to me at all that the 1955 group is less formidable than the 1967 group. I think it has the best pure boxer (Johnson), the best big man with boxing ability (Baker), and probably the most dangerous puncher (Satterfield).

 

I respect your opinion, as I still think Ellis would have done pretty well too. Remember, Johnson was knocked out by Moore and Oakland Billy Smith, who was an excellent boxer, at the end of 1954. I won't count his KO defeat by Julio Mederos because he was drugged somehow in that bout.

I use to love watching Johnson box, BUT most people didn't. As a Light Heavyweight he was one of the best and his record speaks for itself. If Ellis of 1968 fought Johnson of 1955, Ellis would have outweighed Johnson by approx. 20 pounds, which might have made the difference, I said might have.

 

I believe that Ellis cut weight in the beginning of his career like some High School and College wrestlers do. I think that made him weaker then he really was. When he went up to Heavyweight, he was at his more natural weight and he was much stronger and better fighter by doing so.

 

Ellis would beat fighters like archie moore at heavy that gave marciano a hard time. frazier and ali were a step above and most people know that liston would be a favourite v marciano. 50s are the most overrated era ever. great fighters at light heavy e.g. moore and charles. old walcott or louis who was crap compared to his best was marciano's best opponent. that shows how really weak it was!

 

Maybe. But no one who lost to several ordinary middleweights was able to sweep the heavies back in the fifties.

 

Jimmy Ellis was somewhere near 205 pounds for Joe Frazier in 1970 and he looked good and strong there, but Frazier was primed and not to be denied at that juncture.... However, a year and a half later, Jimmy Ellis came back to fight Ali in late 1971 at only an announced 191 pounds.... That to me was pretty damn lean for Ellis in the 70s....... I don't think Jimmy Ellis could make 175 pounds after 1968 and have any gas left over in the tank..... The post '68 Ellis was solid at 188 to 195 pounds..... Point is, by the time Jimmy Ellis hit his prime, he was too mature to make 175 pounds anymore...... 190 to 195 was Ellis' peak weights....... That 205 for Frazier in 1970 was a "Blown-Up" weight; not natural..... Cheers......

MR.BILL

 

I think Eliis would be able to handle the Billy Gilliams, Don Cockells and hold his own with Bob Baker and more than likely Valdes, He may have trouble with Bob Satterfield and Layne would not be a walk in the park also Lastarza, not easy...I cant seeing him getting past Charles,Walcott or Moore or Johnson and Marciano would stop Ellis....he may get to the finals but he was not good enough for the finish