Marciano in the Joe Louis era?

I wouldn't call Holly Mims, Henry Hank, Rubin Hurricane Carter, Don Fulmer and George Benton ordinary middleweights. Mims was rated as high as #2, Hank #4, Carter #2, Fulmer #1 and Benton #3.

He lost to Fulmer by a split decision, all 3 score cards had it by 1 point. 2 had it for Fulmer and 1 had it for Ellis. The Unofficial UPI scorecard was 48-46 for Ellis. He also lost to Benton by a MD.

As a middleweight, Ellis was never Rated in the Top 10. His 1st appearence was as a Heavyweight in June, 1967, after beating another good friend of mine, Johnny Persol.

6 months after the Benton bout, Ellis gained over 15 pounds he became much stronger.

Again, Ellis was 6'1" tall and was thin for a middleweight. I think he just cut too much weight at that time and that made him weaker then if he had not cut. It happens all the time with amateur wrestlers.

 

"Ordinary" might have been invidious, but they were also not champions.
Ellis did not make much of a splash at middle and yet became WBA heavyweight champion. This certainly calls into question the depth and quality of the heavyweights behind Ali and Frazier in the late sixties, all spin to the contrary.

 

well bob foster was a great light heavy champ and he lost to quite a few heavies in the 60s.

 

I think that Ellis would have done well in that era but I dont think that he would beat Nino Valdez for example.

The best you can say for him is that he might have got a shot at Marciano.

 

He would have done in any era.

 

Like I said, he cut too much weight as a Middleweight and that made him weak. When he decided not to cut weight, that is when he became a much better fighter because he fought in his natural weight.

 

To bring Jimmy Ellis's early career (middleweight) into perspective, he lost 5 fights out of his first 19, all decisions, some very close, to far more experienced fighters who weren't just leading contenders but are rememebered to this day an VERY GOOD middleweight contenders.

Ellis was a novice professional going up against some of the best men in the divsion.
Just look at the experienced guys he fought. He fought Wilf Greaves (WON) in his 4th fight, he fought Holly Mims (LOST) in his 6th fight. And Mims again in his 9th (WON).

Ellis wasn't second-rate as a middleweight, he was just a novice.

 

The division was extremly weak in the 70's If it had not been for the star quality of Ali, only the boxing world would have known half these guys. Al"Blue Lewis, come on...Wepner...Blin, Evangelista,....Frazier was a stand out but had a short burst of a career....Foreman also had the Olympic build up and stood out ( he was a puncher but had the biggest build-up vs nobodies until Frazier and was basically a wide swinging amatuer...still the rest of the 70's was pretty ordinary...despite what a lot of Ali lovers what to believe and impose on others. I lived it as a fan and every era had its stand outs but Quarry,Norton,Lyle,Shavers,Young, were prob the best of that divison after Ali,Frazier and Foreman but the rest would have had trouble making the top in any era, especially those where there was 1 champ

 

Like you I lived that era ,I thought it was a pretty solid time for heavyweights myself,still, each of us has our own perspective.

 

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What I would notice is that four of these men (Liston, Patterson, Cooper, Chuvalo) were rated in the 1950's. That seems a lot out of twenty-four.

Just off a quick glance at the yearly RING ratings

Heavyweights from one decade rated two decades later:

1920's still rated in 1940's---None

1930's still rated in 1950's---Joe Louis, Lee Savold (#10 in 1939)

1940's still rated in 1960's---None

1950's still rated in 1970's---Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Henry Cooper, (and George Chuvalo in monthly rankings)

1960's still rated in 1980's---Muhammad Ali (but did not win a fight after 1978)

1970's still rated in 1990's---Larry Holmes, George Foreman

Also, Lee Oma was rated the #10 lightheavy contender in 1939 and the #9 heavyweight contender in 1950.
Archie Moore was rated #1 lightheavyweight contender in the late 1940's and #9 heavyweight in 1962 (much higher in monthly rankings)
Harold Johnson was never rated at heavyweight, but was #3 lightheavyweight contender in 1949, a year he defeated Arturo Godoy and Jimmy Bivins, while Johnson was still able to defeat the highly ranked Eddie Machen in 1961. He could have been rated at heavy either year.

As to the seventies, I think seven of the men you named--Patterson, Liston, Cooper, Chuvalo, Terrell, Ellis, and Bonavena were at their best and certainly scored thier biggest wins either in the sixties, or argubly in the case of Patterson and Cooper, in the fifties.

 

Ellis was 24 years old in 1964, had fought nearly 20 pro fights in three years, had beaten four men who had been rated at one time or another, and had behind a him an amateur career of 66 fights which saw him go the finals of the Olympic trials, and also score a victory over Cassius Clay. I would not describe him as a novice.

 

I agree BUT I was just showing you all the TOP Heavyweights of the 1970's, and that is why I put down when they were rated. Most Boxing Historians that I know, rate that era as the best when it comes to Heavyweights.

Here's what I put down comparing Ali with any other Heavyweight Champion.

Because some Heavyweight Champions beat the same opponent more then once, try matching Ali's Top Opponents against any other Heavyweight Champion.


Boxers that Ali fought & beat that were rated #3 or above at one time or another. I also included the Light Heavyweight Champions he fought:


1. George Foreman (CH) 40-0-0 vs.
2. Joe Frazier (CH) 30-1-0 vs.
3. Joe Frazier (CH) 32-2-0 vs.
4. Sonny Liston (CH) 35-1-0 vs.
5. Sonny Liston (CH) 35-2-0 vs.
6. Ken Norton (1-CH) 30-1-0 vs.
7. Ken Norton (1-CH) 37-3-0 vs.
8. Floyd Patterson (CH) 43-4-0 vs.
9. Floyd Patterson (CH) 55-7-1 vs.
10. Jerry Quarry (1) 37-4-4 vs.
11. Jerry Quarry (1) 43-5-4 vs.
12. Oscar Bonavena (2) 46-6-1 vs.
13..Jimmy Ellis (2-CH) 30-6-0 vs.
14. Zora Folley (1) 74-7-4 vs.
15. Ernie Terrell (1-CH) 38-4-0 vs.
16. George Chuvalo (3) 34-11-2 vs.
17. George Chuvalo (3) 66-17-2 vs.
18. Ron Lyle (3) 30-2-1 vs.
19. Earnie Shavers (3) 54-5-1 vs.
20. Joe Bugner (3) 43-4-1 vs.
21. Joe Bugner (3) 51-6-1 vs.
22. Bob Foster (LH-CH) 49-5-0 vs.
23. Mac Foster (1) 28-1-0 vs.
24. Karl Mildenberger (1) 49-2-3 vs.
25. Archie Moore (LH-CH) - (1) 184-22-11 vs.
26. Jimmy Young (1) 17-4-2 vs.
27. Cleveland Williams (3) 65-5-1 vs.
28. Doug Jones (2) 21-3-1 vs.
29. Henry Cooper (2) 27-8-1 vs.
30. Henry Cooper (2) 33-11-1 vs.
31. Leon Spinks (CH) 7-0-1 vs.

 

Is anyone reading what I have been saying. Ellis cut too much weight as a Middleweight and that made him weak. When he decided not to cut weight, that is when he became a much better fighter because he fought in his natural weight. The tallest Top 10 Middleweight during the early 1960's was Robinson and Benvenuti, who were both 5'11", Ellis was 6'1".

I have seen this a number of times in Amateur wrestling, if you cut weight, your not as strong.

 

My comment on Ellis was in reply to Unforgiven calling him a novice. Cutting weight is a different issue.