Why didn't Foreman get a rematch against Ali?

Exactly. So that cancels the phoney "Ali had to wait" story. Not if Joe had beat George he wouldn't. :good

 

But this all changed within a few months. Many experts were actually predicting George would win, based on his Frazier and Le Doux fights and Ali's robbery vs Young. Still, if he posed no threat Ali should have signed because that what he was into then, according to you, making money with small risks,which is what it's all about. :yep

 

...and you'd think he would have definitely received a title shot after he lost to Young. After all, that's how Ron Lyle got one. :hey

 

Ali still had to wait. But, yeah, it definitely makes a difference that the fight already was planned. Ali can't really claim to have been shafted out of that, even if Joe's vacation was a long one.

 

No, Ali did well to keep active- beating up on Frazier leftovers for a year or so. He should have received a rematch sooner, then 'who knows', Joe would have been a bit more confident as he'd still have his '0' and wouldn't have suffered the embarrassment that was Jamaica.

 

Would have been an interesting fight. Hard to know if Frazier would have approached it any differently than he did their actual rematch. He wouldn't have much to prove, but perhaps have been more confident. He didn't seem very hesistant in any of their fights, though.

 

The body through the ropes was embarassing to watch ... I wouldn't usae any fight where Ali was in as bad a shape as he was for Young to evaluate his abilities as a fighter to be honest. I just think that he did himself and the sport a major disservice by coming into bouts in that kind of shape and I think he was very lucky to escape with a draw. Honestly, I hate to watch the fight and struggle to find an unbiased way that I can give Ali a draw, let alone have him winning the thing.

As I said, by comparing who he did fight, comparing who he didn't to other champions is futile ... just that I would've liked to see him settle the score with Young and perhaps, if the timeline allowed for it, defeat Foreman for a second time. Put it like this, if he had beaten Young decisively in a rematch, there'd be no qualms from me about the Foreman thing, other than the WBC issue of retirement and non-retirement, which is why I said that he used his status to do things that other champions have done ... i.e. avoid a fighter. Some people say that Foreman didn't deserve the rematch because of a poor showing in Zaire ... but then, it is an ex-champion's right is it not? According to Ali it is, and even moreso if that ex-champ becomes mandatory.

Forgive my bluntness ... I didn't mean to imply that his second reign wasn't worth much, especially in light of how it compares to certain other ATGs' reigns ... but even I tire of some of Ali's antics and I'm a big fan. To be honest, I even tire of talking about the man at times, kinda closes me off to other ATGs, but I'm trying to discover even more about other fighters as I go along.

I'm the same ... sometimes, though, I play Devil's Advocate, either to provoke areas of discussion or to really draw out someone's true feelings or knowledge on a certain issue ... MDWC does this very well ... you'd even think he hates some of his favourite boxers ... sometimes, it allows you to gain a little enjoyment out of the forum.

Mean is understating the treatment that Ali gave to someone that owed him nothing, yet helped him out when a lot of people suddenly weren't his friend anymore.

I think Ali's going through the top contenders to get to Frazier turned out to be a blessing in disguise ... it gave Foreman a top win and introduced the Norton trilogy ... these are all integral parts of Ali's legacy.

Agreed. Young is the type of fighter that would've got Charley Burley treatment if he were around in the '40's. IMO, he wouldn't have got a shot cos of how bad he'd make the champ look. I can understand why Ali didn't want a part of him again ... Young should've got an instant rematch or at least a shot after beating Foreman.

That woulda been justifiable on account that Young had beaten the mandatory and arguably the champ. I could live with that.

Ideally, rematch Young and face Foreman in '77, I guess.

Thank God that you weren't around when we had some intense Ali crusaders ... we had guys that would convince you that Ali took punches on the jaw on purpose to show the world that he had the strongest teeth around or he didn't KO people stark cold cos he was too nice to do that to another fighter.

Agreed. A lot of the time though I feel like it's done to counteract the abundance of Ali praise at the expense of their ATG champion.

Louis deserves to be defended for things that are said and aren't true, as does anyone else. However, if it's blind worship and denial of truth, this is something that I cannot condone.

I don't accept many of the excuses for losses that people offer for any fighter. However, there are circumstances where factors should be taken into account. Duran being way outsized by Hagler, naturally, is taken into account. Old school fighters riding the railroads, being underfed, undertrained and undersized is taken into account. All things considered, I think you'll find that there are a few that will vwhemently disagree with the Duran apologists.

I wouldn't say that he routinely avoided taking on the best, but yes, he avoided some of the elite Black fighters of his era. He did, however, take on Gavilan and that's an ATG by anyone's standard right there. I actually rate SRR no. 1, myself, but not just to rate him there ... his record, his skills on film when past his prime and the short clips that I have of him at welterweight in addition to a wealth of testimony from people that lived and breathed boxing during this era convince me that this was the greatest fighter inside the squared circle.

Up and until he initially retired, you cannot really criticise Leonard for anything other than being a media darling, if you're against that kind of thing. A lot of people dislike him for the businessman way he took to boxing when he came back ... for making Hagler wait for him after saying it'd never happen, only to take him on when himself and Dundee noticed Hagler was slipping (especially if you're Rooster) ... I personally dislike the way he politricked winning two different weight titles on the same night, one being created just for him and all ... but that doesn't take away from what he accomplished in the ring or from the fact that he has arguably the greatest 1st tier wins in his record of any fighter.

Foreman is both overrated and underrated. That's another discussion for another day, though

 

I agree actually.

 

Don't sound so surprised.

 

I've only watched it once, and won't do it again. I think many rounds was hard to score and I didn't have a clear winner. If Young had taken the title it would have been one of the most unconvincing ways it had been taken in IMO.

He could without a doubt have handed all that better. Perferably by doing what he said he'd do - retire.

I can understand that.

He's a scouser. Taking the **** out of people is considered an art form over there I've heard.

Yeah, much of Ali's career and life seems to have been scipted somehow. The perfect story, more or less.

Would be interesting to hear Young's own view. The man seemed to have been shafted on several occassions.

That would have been ideal

Yeah, I'm glad for that. Might even have been caught up in it. Or just the opposite... (not likely, though :rasta)

You're seeing Ali all over the place. Those guys were being made into demi-gods before Ali was born, so let's not put everything on his doorstep.

Sure he does. But he does have a bit of a sacred status, not totally undeserved, though.

I know. It's a two way street to some extent. But sometimes when you hear why some of his really bad losses just was because of this and that... The guy insulted Leonard more horribly than Ali insulted Frazier IMO, but still Leonard is the one who gets the stick for "luring" Duran into an early rematch. Incredible.

Robinson was a truly fantastic fighter and might very well have been the best ever. But still, I feel that he gets more leeway for the ones he avoided than most would get.

But when people critize Leonard for this, it's like he's the only fighter thinking about the business side, and that's BS. Duran, Hagler, Hearns - they all did. Robinson was very explicit that he was business man, and wouldn't take on stupid risks for low rewards. Dempsey perfected this to an art form, but hid behind his manager and without tarnishing his image of a bad boy.

Thing is, Leonard made just about all the rights fights happen. This is what sets him apart, not that he wanted to do so on his own terms.

The Lalonde things was ridiculous in the aspects you mentioned, but that seems to gloss over the fact that Leonard beat a guy that was quite a bit naturally bigger.

 

I read it when it was news.

 

Yes, but your boy retired. :hey

 

Not right away he didn't. :good