Marciano in the Joe Louis era?

11 victories with 9 KO's. What would Frazier, Tyson, Holmes, Ali, Liston have done against thiose 11?

I knew you would find Schmeling BUT he fought mainly out of Germany, where their wasn't any contenders.

While awaiting discharge, Marciano, representing the army, won the 1946 amateur armed forces boxing tournament. His amateur career was interrupted on March 17, 1947, when Marciano stepped into the ring as a professional competitor. That night he beat Lee Epperson by a knockout in three rounds. In an unusual move, however, Marciano returned to the amateur ranks and fought in the Golden Gloves All-East Championship Tournament in March 1948. He was beaten by Coley Wallace during the tournament. He continued to fight as an amateur throughout that spring and competed in the AAU Olympic tryouts in the Boston Garden. There he knocked out George McGinnis, but hurt his hands during the bout and was forced to withdraw from the tournament. The McGinnis fight was his last amateur bout. His amateur years, with an 8-4 record, would be the last time Marciano experienced a loss.

So he did have some good competition before he turned Pro BUT like you stated, he didn't have as much as some others.

The reason I am comparing Rocky with Louis and Ali is because of the question: Marciano in the Joe Louis era?

 

By the way, here's the Year end ratings of the Heavyweights from 1896 to 1925. Jeffries fought a lot of top contender BUT Dempsey didn't.

1896 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JAMES J CORBETT
1.BOB FITZSIMMONS
2.PETER MAHER
3.DAN CREEDON
4.JAMES J CORBETT
5.BOB ARMSTRONG
6.TOM SHARKEY
7.JOE CHOYNSKI
8.JOE GODDARD
9.KID MCCOY
10.HENRY BAKER

1897 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.BOB FITZSIMMONS
1.BOB FITZSIMMONS
2.PETER MAHER
3.KID MCCOY
4.TOM SHARKEY
5.JOE CHOYNSKI
6.JAMES J CORBETT
7.JAMES J JEFFRIES
8.DAN CREEDON
9.CON DOYLE
10.JACK BONNER
10.GUS RUHLIN

1898 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.BOB FITZSIMMONS
1.JAMES J JEFFRIES
1.TOM SHARKEY
3.KID MCCOY
4.PETER MAHER
5.BILLY STIFT
6.TOMMY RYAN
7.FRANK CHILDS
8.GUS RUHLIN
9.JOE CHOYNSKI
10.PETER JACKSON

1899 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JAMES J JEFFRIES
1.JAMES J JEFFRIES
2.TOM SHARKEY
3.PETER MAHER
4.BOB FITZSIMMONS
5.GUS RUHLIN
6.JOE CHOYNSKI
7.KID MCCOY
8.TOMMY RYAN
9.BILLY STIFT
10.FRANK CHILDS

1900 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JAMES J JEFFRIES
1.BOB FITZSIMMONS
2.JAMES J JEFFRIES
3.GUS RUHLIN
4.JAMES J CORBETT
5.PETER MAHER
6.KID MCCOY
7.TOMMY WEST
8.BILLY STIFT
9.JACK ROOT
10.TOM SHARKEY

1901 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JAMES J JEFFRIES
1.JAMES J JEFFRIES
2.JACK ROOT
3.KID MCCOY
4.GUS RUHLIN
5.PETER MAHER
5.JOE CHOYNSKI
7.FRANK CHILDS
8.GEORGE GREEN
9.TOMMY RYAN
10.GEORGE GARDNER

1902 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JAMES J JEFFRIES
1.JAMES J JEFFRIES
2.BOB FITZSIMMONS
3.GUS RUHLIN
4.TOMMY RYAN
4.JACK JOHNSON
6.JACK ROOT
7.PH JACK O'BRIEN
8.GEORGE GARDNER
9.DENVER ED MARTIN
10.MARVIN HART

1903 YEAR-END RATINGS. CHAMP.
JAMES J JEFFRIES
1.JAMES J JEFFRIES
2.BOB FITZSIMMONS
3.JACK JOHNSON
4.GEORGE GARDNER
5.TOMMY RYAN
6.GUS RUHLIN
7.SAM MCVEY
8.SANDY FERGUSON
9.JACK ROOT
10.MARVIN HART

1904 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JAMES J JEFFRIES
1.JAMES J JEFFRIES
2.JACK JOHNSON
3.TOMMY RYAN
4.BOB FITZSIMMONS
5.PH JACK O'BRIEN
6.JACK ROOT
7.MARVIN HART
8.KID MCCOY
9.SANDY FERGUSON
10.GUS RUHLIN

1905 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.MARVIN HART
1.MARVIN HART
2.PH JACK O'BRIEN
3.JACK JOHNSON
4.JOE JEANNETTE
5.BOB FITZSIMMONS
6.JACK ROOT
7.BILL SQUIRES
8.KID MCCOY
9.GUS RUHLIN
10.SANDY FERGUSON

1906 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.TOMMY BURNS
1.PH JACK O'BRIEN
2.BILLY DUNNING
3.BILL SQUIRES
4.JACK JOHNSON
5.TOMMY BURNS
6.BOB FITZSIMMONS
7.SAM MCVEY
8.GUS RUHLIN
9.JACK ROOT
10.JACK TW SULLIVAN

1907 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.TOMMY BURNS
1.TOMMY BURNS
2.JACK JOHNSON
3.AL KAUFMAN
4.JOE JEANNETTE
5.TOMMY RYAN
6.PH JACK O'BRIEN
7.JACK TW SULLIVAN
8.SAM MCVEY
9.FIREMAN JIM FLYNN
10.MIKE SCHRECK

1908 YEAR-END RATINGS
CHAMP.JACK JOHNSON
1.JACK JOHNSON
2.AL KAUFMAN
3.SAM LANGFORD
4.TOMMY BURNS
5.STANLEY KETCHEL
6.PH JACK O'BRIEN
7.SAM MCVEY
8.JOE JEANNETTE
9.MORRIS HARRIS
10.BILLY PAPKE

1909 YEAR-END RATINGS
CHAMP.JACK JOHNSON
1.JACK JOHNSON
2.SAM LANGFORD
3.AL KAUFMAN
4.STANLEY KETCHEL
5.JOE JEANNETTE
6.BILL LANG
7.SAM MCVEY
8.BILLY PAPKE
9.MNT JACK SULLIVAN*
10.PH JACK O'BRIEN

1910 YEAR-END RATINGS
CHAMP.JACK JOHNSON
1.JACK JOHNSON
2.SAM LANGFORD
3.STANLEY KETCHEL
4.TOMMY BURNS
5.AL KAUFMAN
6.JAMES J JEFFRIES
7.JOE JEANNETTE
8.BILL LANG
9.PORKY DAN FLYNN
10.BILLY PAPKE

1911 YEAR-END RATINGS
CHAMP.JACK JOHNSON
1.SAM MCVEY
2.SAM LANGFORD
3.FIREMAN JIM FLYNN
4.JOE JEANNETTE
5.CARL MORRIS
6.BOB SCANLON
7.ALF LANGFORD
8.JACK DILLON
9.BOB MOHA
10.AL KAUFMAN

1912 YEAR-END RATINGS
CHAMP.JACK JOHNSON
1.JACK JOHNSON
2.SAM LANGFORD
3.TOMMY BURNS
4.JOE JEANNETTE
5.LUTHER MCCARTY
6.JESS WILLARD
7.FIREMAN JIM FLYNN
8.SAM MCVEY
8.BOMB BILLY WELLS
10.TONY ROSS 10.FRANK KLAUS

1913 YEAR-END RATINGS
CHAMP.JACK JOHNSON
1.GUNBOAT SMITH
2.JACK JOHNSON
3.SAM LANGFORD
4.TOMMY BURNS
5.SAM MCVEY
6.JESS WILLARD
7.ARTHUR PELKEY
8.GEO CARPENTIER
9.JOE JEANNETTE
10.JACK DILLON

1914 YEAR-END RATINGS
CHAMP.JACK JOHNSON
1.SAM LANGFORD
2.JACK JOHNSON
3.GEO CARPENTIER
4.JACK DILLON
5.SAM MCVEY
6.TOMMY BURNS
7.CARL MORRIS
8.JESS WILLARD
9.HARRY WILLS
10.JIM COFFEY

1915 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JESS WILLARD
1.FRANK MORAN
2.JESS WILLARD
3.HARRY WILLS
4.JIM COFFEY
5.JACK JOHNSON
6.JOE JEANNETTE
7.JACK DILLON
8.TOM COWLER
9.SAM MCVEY
10.SAM LANGFORD

1916 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JESS WILLARD
1.JESS WILLARD
2.HARRY WILLS
3.JACK JOHNSON
4.FRANK MORAN
5.FRED FULTON
6.CHARLIE WEINERT
7.CARL MORRIS
8.BILLY MISKE
8.BOMB BILLY WELLS
10.TOM COWLER

1917 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JESS WILLARD
1.HARRY WILLS
2.HARRY TATE
3.FRED FULTON
4.SAM LANGFORD
5.TOMMY GIBBONS
5.BILLY MISKE
7.JOE JEANNETTE
8.FRANK MORAN
9.JACK DEMPSEY
10.JACK THOMPSON

1918 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JESS WILLARD
1.JACK DEMPSEY
2.FRED FULTON
3.HARRY WILLS
4.JACK JOHNSON
5.BOMB BILLY WELLS
6.TOMMY GIBBONS
7.HARRY TATE
8.WILLIE MEEHAN
9.HARRY GREB
10.BILLY MISKE

1919 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JACK DEMPSEY
1.JACK DEMPSEY
2.FRED FULTON
3.HARRY WILLS
4.HARRY GREB
5.TOMMY GIBBONS
6.GEO CARPENTIER
7.JACK JOHNSON
8.SAM LANGFORD
8.KID NORFOLK
10.JESS WILLARD

1920 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JACK DEMPSEY
1.JACK DEMPSEY
2.HARRY WILLS
3.FRED FULTON
4.KID NORFOLK
5.GEO CARPENTIER
6.GENE TUNNEY
7.JACK JOHNSON
8.TOMMY GIBBONS
9.FRANK MORAN
10.HARRY GREB

1921 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JACK DEMPSEY
1.JACK DEMPSEY
2.HARRY WILLS
3.TOMMY GIBBONS
4.GENE TUNNEY
5.FRED FULTON
6.GEO CARPENTIER
7.BILLY SHADE
8.HARRY GREB
9.JOE BECKETT
10.TED KID LEWIS

1922 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JACK DEMPSEY
1.JACK DEMPSEY
2.HARRY GREB
3.HARRY WILLS
4.TOMMY GIBBONS
5.BILLY MISKE
6.GENE TUNNEY
7.JOE BECKETT
8.JEFF SMITH
9.GEO CARPENTIER
10.BENNY MILLER

1923 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JACK DEMPSEY
1.JACK DEMPSEY
2.GENE TUNNEY
3.BILLY MISKE
4.HARRY WILLS
5.TOMMY GIBBONS
6.GEO CARPENTIER
7.LUIS FIRPO
8.JEFF SMITH
9.JACK RENAULT
10.HARRY GREB

1924 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JACK DEMPSEY
1.TOMMY GIBBONS
2.GENE TUNNEY
3.HARRY WILLS
4.TIGER FLOWERS
5.JEFF SMITH
6.HARRY GREB
7.AD STONE
7.GEO CARPENTIER
9.JACK RENAULT
10.TONY FUENTE

1925 YEAR-END RATINGS.
CHAMP.JACK DEMPSEY
1.GENE TUNNEY
2.HARRY WILLS
3.TOMMY GIBBONS
4.GEORGE GODFREY
5.YOUNG STRIBLING
6.HARRY GREB
7.BUD GORMAN
8.PAULINO UZCUDUN
9.TONY FUENTE
10.AD STONE

 

Great Post

 

Great Post!!!

:happy:happy

 

Ofcourse he would and does Burt Sugar feel that even though Lennox Lewis beat every man he faced, he should be penalized for his loses or should he be held in high esteem for the way he came back and won

 

I don't think Lewis is in his top ten, but I am not certain. Maybe someone else can clarify this.

I checked this. Lewis isn't even in his top ten.

 

There 5 Heavyweight Champions that beat every opponent they faced. I also know several Top contenders that have done that too.

Lewis, who I also had the pleasure of meeting and introducing, will always have those 2 loses hanging over his head. I was at the Conn. Boxing Hall of Fame affair last November and his name was brought up and their was people that pointed out those 2 KO loses.

Personally, I think on any given day, he could have held his own with the best of them.

 

I know of Marciano, Johansson, Bowe, and Lewis. Who is the fifth champion? Curiously, who are the contenders--did they have truncated careers?

 

Tunney and 1 of the contenders was Steve Hamas.

You got the hard ones. On HBO they had only 2, Rocky and Lewis, then Max came up with Tunney. I then wrote an E-Mail to my good friend Harold Lederman telling him the other 2. I then got an E-Mail from Lampley thanking me.

 

I don't see anything in this post that particularly jumps out of the book at me, except the regurgitation of words like " overrated ", with little or no explanation as to why..

Earnie Shavers Ko'd 68 men in 74 wins, scored 22 first round KO's and had the testimony of two of the most durable heavyweights in history as being the hardest puncher either had ever fought.

Jimmy Young was viewed by many fighters, trainers, experts, etc. as being a technical genious. His record has virtually no padding on it, and despite facing an entire generation of big punchers, was only stopped on two occasions in his career. One of the stoppages came against Earnie Shavers in only his 12th pro fight, while the other came via stoppage on cuts against Gerry Cooney when he was past it.

Jerry Quarry did not need to face Frazier or Ali to gain recognition as a great contender. He is remembered by many as one of the most legitmate challengers in the history of the division and this concencus is very reasonable in my opinion. Over the course of his career, Quarry compiled victories over Floyd Patterson, Earnie Shavers, Ron Lyle, Buster Mathis, Mac Foster, Jack Bodell and Thad Spencer. All were good fighters at the time. Everytime someone thought Quarry's career was over, he'd come right back and beat a top rater placing himself back into contention. This is why he's rated as one of the best. In fact, he was a top challenger for the title before he ever fought Ali or Frazier.


Ron Lyle's battle with Foreman, although a losing effort, was one of the most exciting heavyweight fights of all time. Lyle also defeated a wide array of good fighters such as Jimmy Ellis, Earnie Shavers, Joe Bugner, OScar Bonavena, Buster Mathis and Boone Kirkman.

 

Another GREAT Post!

:happy:happy

Good Night! I have to Ring Announce tomorrow (Thursday) in North Bergen, New Jersey.

 

I don't know if I should bring this up, but Tunney didn't defeat everyone he fought, which is the way you phrased it. He fought a draw with Tommy Gavigan and never defeated him. He also had a no contest with Jack Renault, and a couple of very disputed ND bouts, one of which was with Tommy Loughran. The newspapers seem split on what happened in that bout.

I certainly wouldn't have thought of Hamas, who in fact beat the three men who beat him and got to #1 contender. However, Hamas fought a draw with Charley Massara, and as far as I can tell never defeated him.

 

Thanks,

Enjoy the fights.:good

 

Quarry was the most solid against the slow big hard punchers because he could hit and take a good shot but he had trouble with speed and had his share of loses, Chuvalo and Ellis that he should have won

Shavers got stopped and beaten by a lot of ordinary guys and in his prime beaten and dropped by Bob Stallings who had a 21-24 record and was stopped many times...Earnie had power but I remember Quarry got him in 1 and his big win was over Ken Norton (who was also stopped by most of the punchers he faced) Still Shavers had enough power to compete in any era but again he is known for his loses

Lyles big win was over Shavers and his gallent loss over Foreman but Lyle was not a killer puncher and was beaten up by Quarry, he also drew with Gregorio Peralta in Gregorio's last fight...Lyle was solid but I dont see him becoming a champion in any era

Guys were contenders but I dont see Lyle or Shavers walking through any era...Quarry was the best of the 3 but he had his trouble with Frazier and Ali and I think he would also have trouble in the other era's Quarry and the rest may have had a shot in the 80's, there were so many titles changing hands Page,Dokes,Thomas,Weaver,Tate, Holmesand Quarry had a good right hand but I dont see any of them being dominant

 

Quarry had trouble with frazier and ali. haha any heavy in the 50s would be have trouble as you call it with frazier and Ali - wait sorry any fighter in the 50s would be beat by frazier and ali. Patterson would never be champ like he was in the 50s if he was fighting ali and frazier. He would end up like Quarry (a nearly champ but great) and people like archie moore wouldn't be in the top 10 heavy list from their era and he's regarded as one of rocky's best opponents at heavyweight. light heavy yeah i agree but heavy in the best era. no chance.