George Chuvalo - how good was he?

That's EXACTLY what he has illuded to in the past. He has called Norton, Quarry, Shavers and Lyle journeyman. In fact, I was tuning in to a conversation that he had with Janitor one time several months ago, and he referred to Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles as journeyman. Now he's making comments like " you don't need skills to bang away at the head or body to cause damage. " Its staggering the amount of **** he talks, then makes references to what he calls " contemporary sources, " in an effort to show pessimistic views about a particular fighter during their perspective time. That's all well and good, but he uses that as the end all be all to assess that fighter's quality and historical value. If we were to always go by what assholes say in regards to the current man on top, then your precious Klits are never going anywhere in the big picture of history Mendoza.....Get my drift?

 

Exact quote, please, where I called Ezzard Charles a journeyman?

I can provide you with literally hundreds of reports from late 19th and early 20th century, where newspaper writers reported fights where a clever boxer was given trouble by unskilled (all relatively, of course) tough men, who just went in despite the damage they were receiving and banged at the body and head, holding the more clever man even or having the better of it. Only complete fool thinks you need some special skills to move your arms in close, where the opponent doesn't know how to protect the body during infighting (such as Ali or Patterson). Watch current crop of European fighters (since I live in Europe, we get more of them shown on TV, than American fighters), all these German and Polish cruiserweight and heavyweight mediocrities, who quite obviously are taught something in the gym, but they still have little idea about defense except how to cover yourself up behind raised arms, no head movement, not footwork, nothing. Chuvalo was exactly like these guys, tough, strong man, but having very little where science is concerned. Someone as "wooden" as Marco Huck, for example, shows somewhat more skills than Chuvalo.

 

Of course Chuvalo has nothing to prove to me; i never said or claimed he did. I'm merely stating what i see.

 

I don't have the time to go sifting back through 6-12 months of posts looking for a misinformed comment. You know what you said. If anything, I can PM Janitor and ask him to verify it.

 

Certainly I know what I could say, and what I couldn't. I never called Charles a journeyman.

 

Senya13, respect to you for your posts and opinions about the sport. I appreciate your boxing knowledge and enthusiasm.

I honestly can't recall you calling Charles a journeymen, but you have underrated and discredited some of the all time greats in previous posts, like Charles, Norton, Frazier, Foreman, Patterson and Holmes. Basically anyone who is not "Ali" you have had contrary opinions, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't know if you're a huge Ali supporter, but to say that it doesn't take skills to be able to bang to the body is very wrong.

In fact, I've met and talked to different fighters and trainers who say body shots thrown correctly are among the hardest shots to land, especially with regards to footwork and position.

It surprises me that you can say this especially considering the beautiful body shots that I've seen from fighters like Arguello, Roy Jones of course, Archie Moore, and heavyweights Tyson and Frazier who made their boxing livings on body shots. What about Julio Cesar Chavez and the essence of South American boxing which is primarily based on throwing the left hook to the body?

Body shots take serious practice and care to throw to achieve the maximum affect. There's more to just banging away in flurries to the body as opposed to using all the punches properly to land body shots. Hooks to the body, uppercuts to the body, jabs to the body, straight rights to the body.

Think about it.

 

Ali supporter? That's something I've never been called. Are you new on this board?

 

Who do you support the most as a heavyweight then? I read posts from you underrating Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Holmes, Patterson and Quarry, not surprisingly all opponents of Ali.

Do you still believe it takes very little skills to bang away at the body or the head with success?

I strongly believe ALL punches to the head and body must be taught with proper balance, stance, footwork and guard position. Flurrying is not just winging punches to the body or head. Effective flurries are punches put together in combinations.

George Chuvalo knows how to punch in combinations to the head and body.

I'm not new on this board either.

 

I'm not talking about proper or not proper technique of throwing punches. You don't need much practice, you don't need a trainer, you don't need talent, to be hitting the body in close when, and I repeat, when the opponent doesn't know how to defend the body or just doesn't want to protect it (like Ali). It doesn't require skills to be able to do damage that way, just you gotta be strong and have some small practice at boxing or some other martial art.

 

For a huge Ali supporter it would seem more logical to tend to overrate these guys.

 

You DO need talent to throw to the body properly. I find this odd but comical coming from you. I'd laugh at you in sparring or fighting sessions, throwing a body shot because, you'd probably break your wrist or bust your hand trying with this kind of logic.

To hit to the body properly in close, takes more skill than just throwing the punch. Logically, if an opponent doesn't know how to defend a body shot, their hands are going to drift lower which is natural. You know what this means? You're at risk of landing the punch on the elbows or forearms, which can do damage to your own hands.

There is no way Senya13, that you're going to turn over and pronate an uppercut to the body or a hook to the body which doesn't happen by just trying to throw the punch. There is no way Senya13 that you're going to land a proper straight right hand punch to the body unless you set it up properly off a jab with footwork.

I've sparred and trained against fighters of different skills, and you know what? Nine times out of ten, the most inexperienced fighter's hands will drift down to mid-riff. This is a natural reactionary occurrence for a fighter unless they are taught properly. The biggest, strongest, and most inexperienced guys that I've sparred with barely hurt me to the body, whereas the smaller guys that had footwork and technique who knew how to throw body shots properly, hurt me much more.

Another thing, Ali's reflexes saved him from a lot of improper technique, but he did block body shots with his left hand across his belly and sometimes parried as well.

 

Take a friendly word from the wise..

Don't waste your breath..

 

There were literally thousands of fighters who started boxing career without proper training, they just needed the money and this seemed like a good choice to earn a buck or two. This was when the gloves were much smaller than today too. Yet, few of them broke their hands while landing punches to body or head. By your way of thinking each one of these thousands had plenty of talent to be able to avoid injuries at once.

Sorry, but your reasoning is de facto completely flawed, as the practice has been showing us for soon to be 300 years (since James Figg).

 

What evidence do you have to support that " few " fighters broke or unjured their hands in those days? The whole reason why boxing gloves were invented, and made bigger over time, was to PROTECT the hand.

 

I have tens of thousands of pages with boxing reports, and people breaking their hands in limited-rounds fights happened very seldom. I hope you not gonna be trying to persuade me each one of them, especially in second half of 19th century, had a trainer who taught them how to punch before they entered the ring for the first time, and then entered it on an almost weekly basis.