Jacks Dempsey ranking - arguments

And he KO's that Tunney in under 3, oh no wait

 

I think its likely Spinks and Conn were better than anyone Dempsey beat, they aren't easy fights and Spinks can bang, especially at cruser, Dempsey probably beats both none the less. Charles I think could beat Dempsey

 

I light of what I have read here I have to say the negatives against Jack where that he was not active enough and he did not fight Wills. I think those two issues where not Jack's fault in fact he was as active as any heavyweights before him. I still pick Jack to beat any heavyweight before him and any heavyweight leading to Joe Louis ( and he still had a chance to beat Louis) . I think the fact was such a big star outside the ring and the 1st million dollar gate fighter had an impact on his career. ( he was a star) I do not see a prime Dempsey having trouble with Sharkey,Schmeling,Carnera,Braddock,Baer.

The fighters that would give him trouble would be Walcott,Charles but Dempsey had Power and speed and a great left hook and right hand. A prime Dempsey would have had trouble with Tunney( best legs until Walcott and Ali and some pop) but would have beaten him IMO. Dempsey's inactive legs started moving slow by then but he still had great 2 fisted power (showed it vs Tunney(long count) and Sharkey....In light of all that I will Rate Dempsey at # 4 behind Louis,Marciano,Ali....I give those 3 the edge over him but I would nor undermine Dempsey to beat anyone of them on a given night....He had power and speed and pressure(a problem for Louis) he could match Marciano with early power and edge him with speed but lose in the stamina dept.....He had a great left hook and speed vs Ali and had a great chance but Ali had great feet and even edged Tunney here. My top 4

Louis...fought the best dominated the longest (never lost in his prime) 25 defences best combo/power puncher

Marciano...Short career but a snapshot of 2fisted power,stamina,Heart,Determination..fought the best of his era and got out with 3-4 fights left...retired 49-0 43 Ko's and beat the (best who beat the best of his day)

Ali fought the best opponents overall (questions about Liston's 2 fights) but the 1st was on the level IMO...Foreman " best win" exposed big G.....Wars with Frazier but had his trouble with the smaller, less slow men with stamina. and the pressure fighter, Norton..IF Cooper,and Frazier could hurt him Dempsey could have a chance...Ali had one of the best hand speeds(Patterson and Tunney close) and the best feet at Heavy(Tunney close)....

I would not argue with top 3 being in any position but think Dempsey falls slightly short because of inactivity and the fact that he did not fight Wills. It could have been politics but I judge Holmes for not fighting Page,Dokes,Weaver,Coetzee,Tate,Thomas and I take it off his standing...Holmes would have had a decent chance of beating all these men because he was better conditioned than most of then and Dempsey IMO would have beaten Wills ( he was slow and easy to hit) but they did not fight the best of there era and should have to pay for it (POLITICS OR NOT)

 

Like I said I don't fancy Spinks or Conn either, but Conn would simply box and move before probably getting caught up with. Spinks-Dempsey would be like a Hearns-Hagleresque war imo, Dempsey will get caught with big counters and hurt, maybe dropped but hes too strong, fast relentless and ofcourse Tysonesque for Spinks

Now Charles is a tougher kettle of fish. Firstly Charles is better technically and punches much more compact than Dempsey. I just see Charles punches getting their first in exchanges. He's also better using range and moving. He was also an excellent counter puncher and could pick Dempsey off. I see Charles taking Dempsey for these reasons. In a series though Charles would also possibly be ko'd.

Charles also fought at a much higher level than Dempsey and wasn't far off beating Marciano past his prime.

I'd pick Dempsey to KO Walcott though

 

I also like Charles defense and timing against Dempsey's low guard and wrecklessness. In essense Charles will find it easier to hit Dempsey than vice-versa. I'm not sure Dempsey is faster prime for prime and I think although he could punch compact he liked to punch wide and swing for the rafters sometimes and Charles shots would be straighter and more down the pipe.

I also think Charles power is getting downplayed, he may well have been more cautious after killing Baroudi. He had 51kos and stopped Moore, Marshall and Ray amongst many many top class fighters. He also put his combinations together very very nicely

I know I won't change your opinion, and I'm not 100% on Charles winning, fascinating match up though

 

Yeah, that sounds abut right.

And one more thing: If I see anymore talk of Dempsey not really ducking Wills and Greb, that it was Kearn's and/or Richard's fault, I'm gonna retch.

He ultimately has to take responsibility for who he faced and who he didn't. D'Amato, for example, wanted Patterson to duck Liston for ever, but Patterson couldn't live with that so he gave Liston a shot, even though he probably felt he had no chance. Dempsey could have made the fights happen, but he didn't. End of story.

Anyway, why they didn't happen isn't at all as important for his legacy as the simple fact that they just didn't happen, period. We can't know for sure how Dempsey would have done against his two most formidable competitors. Without that knowledge it's impossible to have him in a top 5 IMO, and I personally don't even have him in my top 10.

 

in saying that i'm not a fan of dempsey ,i've got to disagree that he ducked willis.i dont think marciano ducked nino valdes either.i just dont think it wasn't in their make-up
.pity their managers' didn't have the same integrity

 

Thanks for sharing that!

 

Thanks for printing these--what really stands out on the boxing list is that Harry Greb got no support at all. I think he would get my vote as the best of the first half of the century, p4p.

The top athletes are also very interesting. I am somewhat surprised that only Dempsey and Louis represent boxing, and I would have expected Johnny Weissmuller, Honus Wagner, Don Hutson, and Ernie Nevers, among others, to have made this list.

By the way, the AP end of the century poll, is I remember correctly, had the top five heavyweights as:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Marciano
4. Dempsey
5. Johnson

Ali and Marciano came after 1950, so only Louis changed places with Dempsey. I think there just wasn't enough time to put Louis' accomplishments in proper perspective in 1950.