Jacks Dempsey ranking - arguments

He took a hiding in only 10 rounds, yet he was incredibly hard to tag? Something doesn't add up there.

Watch the film, he tags Dempsey plenty. Speaking of which, you probably haven't seen it in a while, because it was a right hand to the temple that put Demspey down, not a left hook.

 

You missed half the sentence out.
If you are going to quote me ,please quote the whole sentence.
ON THE CHIN.
Dempsey sustained facial damage and swollen eyes from Tunney 's punches,I have allready said that.
Your dislike of Dempsey vies in its bias with Mendoza's hatred of Johnson. You took a cheap shot there Chris P.
I understand you visit the gym.Stay out of the ring for 3 years then get in there with a fast jabbing accurate cutting puncher ,who is a precise boxer and has great reflexes and fantastic foot speed .I think you will find 10 rounds can be a very long time.

 

Sharkey/Tunney would have made an interesting measure on Tunney but Dempsey showed his power and meaness in that fight with Sharkey and even though his legs were not as nimble, he still put Tunney down for the long count. Sharkey went on to become a Champion but J.D. and that hook stopped his momentum

 

Must be a difficult transition... Hard man truggling to survive.... riding the rails.. taking on all comers, gaining recognition.... winning some credibilty... taking the title in murderous fashion... defending several times... living the life of a Hollywood filmstar.... getting rusty and out of season.. then trying to defend against a fresh young guy, with a good set of skills.

Dempsey committed the same sin he hated.... allowing his own rust to set in...

Sharkey had great fluidity in style... a great match for a very orthodox Tunney.

 

Oh, you meant literally to the chin. That may be true, but he couldn't miss Dempsey's face. And still, film speaks louder than humble words.

 

Isn't this a circular argument. Dempsey lost to a "great" heavyweight when he lost to Tunney. Why is Tunney a great heavyweight? He defeated Dempsey.

Question--where does Tunney rate as a heavyweight and as a p4p fighter if Dempsey knocks him out in 1926?

 

I think you capsuled it rather well .Having your nose remodelled ,and living the "hollywood life" are signs that you have taken your eye off the ball imo.

 

You know exactly what I meant .
Not that you give a**** but you just went down in my estimation. I thought better of you Mendoza.

 

None of these points are new ...

Dempsey was long inactive. His legs were not close to what they were . His speed and even power were diminished.

Tunney was a terrific light heavy who moved up to heavyweight and carried it well. He was in his absolute prime v.s. Dempsey ...

Tunney said on multiple occassions that Dempsey was hard to hit flush on the chin because of the way he tucked it in between his shoulders ... Tunney obviously had more success to his farhead and eyebrows ... he basically cut up but did not seriously hurt Dempsey. Even the right that put Jack down in RD 8 was more of catching Dempsey offbalance and tired ...

I have watched what they call round one of fight one many times and never saw the shot that supposedly hurt Dempsey so badly ... maybe they mismark the round in the films ..

If you closely watch both fights, especially the second, you can imagine a prime Dempsey catching Tunney and winning ... he missed by fractions so many times as a shell of himself that I feel a prime Jack could have turned the trick ...

 

I agree, I think an active ,focused Dempsey would have caught Tunney

 

1. "Dempsey had a very good slip and duck type of defense."

I notice this is being debated. I would say this is true to a degree, but he carried his hands low and, off the film, just was not all that hard to hit. Brennan hits him on chin pretty consistently with uppercuts. Firpo catches him on the chin. Tunney and Sharkey bang him pretty consistently. I notice that if someone goes on the offense against Dempsey, like Firpo, Tunney, and Sharkey, he doesn't do very well when fighting purely on the defensive.

2. "Quality wins--Firpo, Willard, J Sharkey, Gibbons, Carpentier, Brennan, Miske, Gunboat Smith, Morris, Levinsky, Fulton, Pelkey"

I guess Flynn, Homer Smith and a couple of journeymen could also be on this list, but still this is, I think, an ordinary list for an ATG candidate, and a close look at it shows a real problem with ranking Dempsey in the top five and perhaps even the top ten. He didn't beat most of the best men around. Gibbons, Brennan, Miske, Gunboat Smith, and Levinsky lost to Greb. Gibbons, Carpentier, and Levinsky lost to Tunney. Fulton, Firpo, and Gunboat Smith lost to Wills. Two others, Morris and Pelkey were ordinary. That leaves the old, overweight, and inactive Willard, and the very erratic Sharkey.

3. "Film"

a. Willard--impressive performance--A +
b. Brennan--Dempsey struggles against average contender, rallies to stop him in 12--C
c. Carpentier--Carpentier is just a much smaller man. The official weight was given as 172. Many claimed it was more like 164. What can't be denied is that Rickard closed Carpentier's workouts to the press so his small size would not be publicized--C at best.
d. Gibbons--Gibbons had lost to Greb, but at 32 was still a good fighter. His weight was 175 and his wins over top heavies rather slim--C+ or B-.
e. Firpo--Dempsey knocks Firpo down 9 times and out in two, but skates beyond the rules a couple of times and is himself knocked down three times (off the film) and out of the ring. Kind of a hard fight to judge as Firpo was strong but very crude--B
f. Tunney I--Tunney dominates fight--has no trouble outboxing Dempsey and handling him in the clinches. Dempsey shows heart and toughness, but is certainly outclassed--D
g Sharkey--Dempsey is outclassed for 6 rounds and then knocks Sharkey out with one punch in the 7th when Sharkey is not looking. Tough fight to rate. Certainly Dempsey shows heart and power, but the fight also raises questions--B
h. Tunney II--A replay of the first fight, except for the explosion in the 7th. Dempsey again shows power. Whole issue clouded by "long count" but Tunney probably could have beaten the count--C+

Evaluation--Dempsey looks better on film than any earlier champion, but not as good as Tunney. I think there are severe flaws in his low-hands defense. His chin was good but certainly he could be hurt. What is more impressive is his ability to fight when hurt. His power gives him a shot against anyone. A solid top fifteen. A fair pick for the lower reaches of the top ten. I judge top five as too high.

 

Great point. Even if you only look at him as a lightheavyweight, his resume is not all that impressive. I made a thread on this subject a week ago.

 

I have Dempsey at 3 with ali second and Louis at one.