Jacks Dempsey ranking - arguments

I think Dempsey should be in the top-15.

I currently put him at #4.

Cons: Should have accomplished more. Fought at cruiserweight.

Pros: Stopping Fulton, stopping Sharkey nine years later, is fairly good longevity; how I think he'd done against other ATG Heavies if they'd come along at the same time; versatility.

 

I don't agree with the rating of Dempsey at the end but think this is a very good considered post.:good

 

If yo are not prepared to make any alowance for Dempseys period of inactivity in judging this fight then you must give Jack Johnson some credit for beating Jim Jeffries despite his layoff.

You cant have it both ways.

 

1. Gibbons beat a young Greb in 1915. More impressively, he beat Greb in May of 1920 in the fight you quoted above, perhaps Tommy's best performance, winning 7 of 10 rounds. Two months later Greb reversed the decision, winning 7 of 10 rounds. In 1922 Greb defeated Gibbons very decisively at Madison Square Garden. Certainly this win brings into question whether Gibbons was better than Greb in 1923 when Gibbons got the shot at Dempsey.

2. Fulton beat Langford--Yes, but Wills beat Langford many times. It is certainly an act of faith to assume that Fulton, who was stopped 11 times, could have fought Langford numerous times beginning in 1914 without ever getting cold-cocked somewhere along the line. The whole thing is a moot point to me, anyway, as Wills slaughtered Fulton in 1920. Wills was just better than Fulton.

3. Sharkey beat Wills in 1926, but Wills never again won a major fight and was more decisively ko'd by Uzcudun the following year.

4. Tunney lost to Greb--I fail to see what this has to do with anything as Dempsey did not beat Tunney and did not fight Greb.

I stand on the position that Tunney, Greb, and Wills were the best three fighters out there and Dempsey beat none of them.

 

Jeffries was much older and had been off much longer. The fact is a lot of men laid off a long time in that era, but fought exhibitions, the same as Dempsey. Corbett was off three years when he fought Fitz. Willard was off three years when he fought Dempsey. If you dock Tunney because Dempsey was inactive, do you also dock Dempsey because Willard was inactive?

 

The experts were
Archie Moore
Angelo Dundee
Don Dunphy
Ferdie Pacheco
Georgie Benton.

 

:goodI have him top 3

 

Glad I could help.

 

Above al we need consistency.

Is a fighter asumed to be a shell after a long layoff or is he asumed to be at his best and to have lost because he would have lost anyway?

You cant refuse to make any alowance for Jack Dempseys layoff going into the Tunney fight but refuse to give Jack Johnson any credit for beating Jeffries because of the long layoff.

Many of the same people who try to reduce Jack Johnsons win over Jeffries to as close to zero as they can, respond to the argument that Dempsey was coming off a long layoff going into the Tunney fight by quoting Dempsey and Tunneys respective ages. Incidentaly Johnson was only two years older than Jeffries.

There is definitely some double standards at play here.

 

This is irrelevant because the comment i was replying to (he was hard to hit on the chin) was specifically referring to the Tunney fight.

 

Except that if you compare Dempsey to the peers you want to compare him to, the ATG's who cleaned out their eras, they defeated the best men or at least most of the best men of their eras, while Dempsey did not defeat Tunney, Greb, nor Wills.

I don't know what Gibbons is supposed to mean in this. Yes, he beat Greb a couple of times, and then lost to him a couple of times. He also lost more badly to Tunney than to Dempsey, and as badly to Greb in 1922 as to Dempsey in 1923.

What is supposed to be the most decisive factor other than defeating the best opponents available in your era?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he had the best mental makeup of any HW champion.

 

I think that this is an issue that you will have to confront again, sooner rather than later.

I will expect you to adopt a consistent position next time we talk about the value of Johnsons best wins or how damaging Dempseys losses to Tunney are.