harry kid matthews vs joey maxim...

I see it a very close fight which goes to a decision. Maxim looked great against crude sluggers. Not so good against slick types. Matthews could punch, but he was slick. My guess is a slight Maxim victory, but the wild card is Matthews' body punching. Also Matthews is far more likely to score a flash knockdown or two which could swing the scoring.

Bottom line--probably controversial decision with outcome depending on the personal scoring philosophy of the judges--body punches versus jabs, heavier punches versus quantity of punches, etc.

By the way, both men liked to counterpunch. This could be a real dull matchup. I have seen both against Murphy and Nardico and they were about equally successful against those opponents.

 

I believe Maxim would win a decision.

In his overall career Maxim fought much better opponents, such as a prime Charles 0-5 Walcott 1-2 Patterson 1-0 Moore 0-3 Robinson 1-0 Bivins 1-1 Pastrano 0-1 Olson 0-2, (4-14) BUT he lost most of them. BUT he also beat Bob Satterfield, Gus Lesnevich, Freddie Mills, Bob Murphy, Ted Lowry, Danny Nardico, Nate Bolden, Jimmy Webb, Lee Oma, Bob Foxworth, Curtis Sheppard 2-1 and Paul Andrews.

Matthews fought 2 Hall of Famers, Marciano 1 Charles 1. He was KO'ed by Rocky, which is no disgrace and then beat Charles at the end of Charles's career. He also beat Rex Layne, Danny Nardico, Lloyd Marshall, Jose Basora, Bob Murphy and stopped Ted Lowry, who went the distance with Marciano twice. BUT he also lost to Don Cockell 3 times.

Even though Matthews stopped Lowry and Maxim didn't, when I asked Ted who was the best boxer he ever fought, he said it was Maxim.[FONT=&quot]
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Joey by dec ,and I dont see him on the floor in this one he had an ATG chin.

 

It is interesting comparing their records:

Matthews-----90 wins-----7 losses-----6 draws 61 ko's

Maxim-----82 wins-----29 losses-----4 draws 21 ko's

Maxim did fight many more tough fighters, but he was also very erratic. Matthews lost only to Jackie Burke (80-22-18) when Matthews was 17 and in his 14 pro fight, to Eddie Booker and Jack Chase when he was still short of 21, and then the Marciano and Cockell fights. The first two Cockell fights were extremely close. The third went to Cockell when Matthews retired with a back injury. Other than the loss to the very experienced and pretty good Burke at 17, Matthews' only other losses were to men ranked at one time or another in the top five. For a man who fought 19 years, that is pretty impressive.

The two men had 10 common opponents, as far as I can see looking over this long records--Phil Muscato, John Thomas, Irish Bob Murphy, Bill Petersen, Lloyd Marshall, Dave Whitlock, Danny Nardico, Charley Eagle, Tiger Ted Lowry, and Ezzard Charles.

Maxim went 13-8-1 with 3 ko's against these men.

Matthews went 11-0 with 8 ko's against these men.

Phil Muscato--won 1 and lost 2 decisions to Maxim. Ko'd in 1 by Matthews.
John Thomas--won 1 and lost 1 decision to Maxim. Ko'd in 1 by Matthews.
Bob Murphy--lost decisions to both men.
Bill Petersen--lost 5 decisions, and 1 ko'd by to Maxim. Ko'd by Matthews in only meeting.
Lloyd Marshall--Maxim lost to Marshall. Matthews ko'd him in 1.
Dave Whitlock--Maxim ko'd him in only meeting. Matthews ko'd him twice.
Danny Nardico--lost decisions to both men.
Charley Eagle--fought draw with Maxim. Matthews ko'd him.
Tiger Ted Lowry--lost decision to Maxim. Matthews ko'd him.
Ezzard Charles--beat Maxim 5 times. Lost only bout to Matthews.

Now I know the rebuttal. Maxim got these men when they were younger and better fighters. Fair point. But still not one did better against Matthews than against Maxim, and four (Muscato, Thomas, Marshall, and Charles) beat Maxim and lost to Matthews. Food for thought. And when the two men did fight an opponent at about the same point in the opponent's career, such as Murphy, Nardico, Lowry, Whitlock, and Petersen, Matthews still did at least as well as Maxim.

As you said in an earlier post, Lowry considered Maxim the best man he fought, over not only Matthews, but also Moore and Marciano. Okay, but I still think a fight between Matthews and Maxim amounts pretty much to a pick 'em, your guess is as good as mine, fight in the early fifties.

 

Perhaps. Joey had a top chin.

But he was ko'd by Curtis Sheppard

and off Boxrec was down against Oliver Shanks, Booker Beckworth, Lloyd Marshall, Tony Bosnich, Roy Hawkins, Danny Nardico, Archie Moore, Bobo Olson, and Eddie Machen.

Off his record and film, Matthews could bang. He had a good chin himself and a lot more power than Maxim.

 

I agree with what you have stated BUT Maxim is in the International Boxing Hall of Fame, the World Boxing Hall of Fame and the Ring Boxing Hall of Fame, so I guess a lot of boxing people thought he was pretty good.

Maxim fought 41 different boxers 58 times, that were at one time rated in the Top 10.

Like you said, your guess is as good as mine, fight in the early fifties and I'll go with Joey.

 

Maxim was caught cold in the first round by Shepard a murderous puncher,he easily reversed that result with a convincing decision later.
If you compare Mathews and Maxim against common opponents [wins] Mathews will allways come out best because he could punch and stopped a lot of guys .Maxim had allmost zero power, he was a jab artist.Maxim by dec for me." Aint many boxers better than that boy" Joe Louis.

 

Good match up. I'd go with Maxim. He had the straight jab, and work rate.

 

Tough fight ...close fight...I give Joey the edge for the dec. BUT MATTHEWS was a good boxer and could be a tight one

 

"If you compare Matthews and Maxim against common opponents (wins) Matthews will allways come out best because he could punch and stopped a lot of guys."

Frankly, I don't understand the logic here. The issue isn't really power. A lot of guys had more power than Maxim, but how many did so much better against common opponents?

"'Ain't many boxers better than that boy' Joe Louis"

Maxim was an IBC stalwart. Matthews was a non-IBC outsider. Louis was on the IBC payroll. Without trying to be critical--Louis needed the money--I would expect Louis to put the most positive possible spin on any comments about Maxim and the most negative possible spin on any comments about Matthews.

I agree with the statement, though, but Matthews might just have been one of the few who was.

 

Its quite simple. You

emphasised that Mathews kod 8 of the common opponents and mentioned how many others he stopped I just pointed out that, when comparing kos , Mathews would allways come out on top.
Louis made the comment about Maxim, before he aligned himself with the IBC, as far as I know he never commented on Mathews,I just threw in his remark on Maxim because I thought it might be interesting to some one,it means nothing in this debate .I dont feel strongly enough about this subject or the views either way to be honest,I can get all the rows I want with Mendoza.

 

I see as just a very close fight. I actually picked Maxim, but Matthews I think deserves at least one supporter as I think a pretty good case can be made for him. RING MAGAZINE picked him as the best p4p fighter in the world in 1951, over Maxim among others.

I think what is impressive about the ten common opponents isn't the number of knockouts Matthews scored, although he clearly is the more dangerous puncher, but that he swept these men while Maxim lost to four of them and had a draw with a fifth.

 

1) It didn't happen because Maxim was an inactive champion who was preoccupied with going after the heavyweight title. It took him almost two years to get around to defending his title, and when he did he chose an opponent that Matthews had already beaten a year or so earlier, Bob Murphy (since losing to Matthews, Murphy had scored a very high profile win over LaMotta, and that earned him the shot).

2) Maxim should've been able to win this by decision. As good as Matthews was, he was like a guy who padded his record against second-rate opposition for years, then emerged from semi-obscurity to score a few good wins, then suffered a crushing defeat (in this case, to Marciano) and never figured into the big picture again. He basically went as far as he was going to go when he beat Murphy. He was not an elite fighter of Maxim's level. Maxim should've been too smart and too well-rounded for him, and won a decision.

 

"He was not an elite fighter of Maxim's level."

Maxim certainly was an elite fighter for a long time--much longer as you accurately pointed out than Matthews. In fairness Maxim fought all the tough guys. He about split with them. The truly top men, such as Charles and Moore, dominated him. Robinson was much smaller, and Patterson was much smaller and also green.

Still, Matthews was a pretty serious fighter, rated in the top ten at middleweight, as the #1 contender at lightheavyweight, and at #6 by the RING and at #2 by the NBA at heavyweight. And he was certainly respected in his own day. This is from THE RING, Feb 1952, page 38:

"Robinson continues to stand out as the best all-around fighter in the middleweight division, though he lost prestige through his defeat to Turpin in Europe. While in the past we have honored Ray with the all-around championship as far as ability as concerned, this time THE RING selects Harry Matthews as the world's best all-around fighter of the year. His cleverness, hitting power, ring generalship, and triumphs over all opponents regardless of weight, has gained for him the post occupied by Sugar Ray last year."

The bottom line which should not be overlooked is that Matthews was not an IBC fighter at a time when the IBC had monopoly control. Matthews had badly beaten Murphy but Murphy got the shot at Maxim. Matthews was still not going to get a shot in 1952. Don Cockell was penciled in for the title shot until he lost to Jimmy Slade. Maxim then defended against Robinson so Matthews was out in the cold at lightheavy. When Maxim lost to Moore, the elimination to see who got first challenge against Moore was between Maxim and Nardico, another fighter who had lost to Matthews.

I think you are correct that Matthews' record is padded, but he did much better than Maxim against common opposition and was 17-6-2 against fighters who appeared at one time or another in THE RING's top ten, a much better percentage than Maxim's.

An interesting factoid, Matthews, who at one point had a fifty bout unbeaten streak, never lost a fight at lightheavyweight.