Mike Tyson 1987 vs. George Foreman 1973

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3lbKndagaA

 

Too bad Foreman isn't dumb enough to fight like above. That'd be a Tyson fan's dream come true. In the above fight he's not using his reach. Is there any indication of the big reach advantage those two have? No. Simulated Foreman is not clinching the very easy to clinch Tyson. I agree that Foreman's jab would not be used like Douglas' nor would it be as successful but it won't have to do much. All Foreman needs to do is stick that jab (land or not) to keep at a range that Foreman can still reach but Tyson cannot. That simulated Foreman is fighting like Ruddock.

If the fight were toe to toe like the above - I'm going for Tyson. He had better reflexes than Foreman and was faster. However, if Foreman pounds away from a distance and smothers Tyson whenever Tyson gets in range, he wins. More likely it'll be the latter scenario.

 

anon1.

"Tyson allowed himself to be pushed back."

You don't really believe this do you?

Tyson can't fight backwards. He never could. Why would he allow himself to be pushed back when he is crap going backwards?

Name me one fight when Tyson put on a boxing masterclass while on the back foot against a big guy?

I will tell you when. NEVER.

Foreman was damaged goods mentally v Lyle. He had not fought for 16 months after being beaten mentally by Ali.

Yes the ten years off gave Foreman rest. But imagine if Mike took ten years off from 1991-2001 then came back, you certainly wouldn't be claiming the lay off helped him when nuthuggers claim that the 4 years out made Mike shot.

 

Private Joker,

I agree with you that it was a big disadvantage for Tyson to get pushed back. I never said that Tyson strategically allowed himself to be pushed back. I said it was PASSIVE. You can't put sensible reason behind it. Just like the way Tyson did nothing to avoid being clinched and when he was clinched he'd do nothing and pathetically look at the referee to break it up. Sure he had poor inside fighting skills but was it really out of his ability to throw a few body punches in the clinch? No. He was passive. If you don't buy this argument I don't blame you. Maybe I'll have to rewatch the Ruddock fight and show the instance where Tyson makes an exception and forces Ruddock back. This is one of the few times I've seen Tyson even ATTEMPT i.e. not be passive when it came to pushing back an opponent (the Holyfield II drama doesn't count ). One thing for sure: McNeeley was not stronger than Tyson. That example does support my notion of passiveness on Tyson's part. I don't doubt in anyway that the outcome will be Foreman pushes Tyson back. I'm arguing for the heck of it but also to emphasize the passive angle.

It's true that Foreman was a different fighter after Zaire. He tried to box and pace himself some more. However, the Lyle fight was purely about brute power, chin, heart, and strength and nothing else. Boxing or pacing were both thrown out of the window. That's why the Ali fight has no relevance to Foreman - Lyle unlike Foreman-Young. It's not like Foreman lost his physical strength after Ali. You could argue that he lost some confidence or aggresson but I'm not going to link that to getting pushed back. Lyle had the fighting style (unlike Frazier) and the talent needed to stand up to Foreman and challenge him. Needless to say, Foreman passed the test admirably but his strength was challenged.

Ali's mental warfare against Foreman was definitely something but it wasn't the reason for his victory. Not even close. It was the right hand leads & lightning fast combinations and excellent timing that knocked out Foreman. Mentally and physically, Foreman did 100% of what he could do and did in his best fights up to that point. Ali was just too much for Foreman. In the staredown, Ali's taunts just made Foreman even angrier and punch harder. That's what Foreman was supposed to do and did best. He was no Sugar Ray. In Foreman's case, the harder & more frequent you punch - the better you are. If he gassed himself out - that's too bad. Of course, I don't buy that argument either. He was simply outclassed for at least 6/8 rounds. I'm sick of all the excuses made for Foreman in the 70s. Saying Foremn was damaged goods after Ali is just as ridiculous as saying Tyson was damaged goods when fighting Douglas. Especially when you consider how fragile Tyson's mind was compared to Foreman's (boo hoo!).

This is completely irrelevant. Tyson relied on his speed & youthful energy (first things to leave a fighter). Foreman relied on his power, strength, and size (last things to leave a fighter). 10 yrs layoff is going to have very different effect on someone like Tyson than it will for Foreman. No matter how you dice it, that 10 yr layoff was beneficial to Foreman's comeback.

 

It's some of those Foreman attributes you mention at the bottom of your post which is why i believe George beats Mike.

Power.

Strength.

Size.


Other guys Mike fought might have had some of those attributes. But they weren't Foreman.

At least Foreman had a jab, look at Ruddock, no jab what so ever.

There were so many moments in the Razor v Tyson fights that made you scream for Ruddock to THROW A JAB! You have a 82 inch reach but don't even use it. You just throw wild left hook uppercuts.

Ruddock had power but he was a one handed fighter who everytime he threw a right hand the commentators would always act surprised.

 

I'd pick Foreman. In the fight ended early it could go either way, but if went longer I don't really understand what Tyson could do. The longer the fight lasted, the more likely it is that Foreman is impossing his will, hard for me to envision it being the other way around.

In a short fight where they both go at it, as would undoubtedly be the case, either Foreman catches Tyson, continues to push him back and hurts him, which is certainly possible, or Tyson gets inside and landes his devastating combinations and takes Foreman out.


In terms of one punch power many say they're close, I disagree, I think Foreman's punches are significantly harder than Tyson's but that Tyson's combinations make up for it and they do get the job done. Absent Tyson hurting Foreman early, it seems to me Foreman would be the one backing Tyson up. Not in the traditional sense of Tyson retreating, more along the lines of him simply pushing him back to the range he favours and letting haymakers go. I think the key punch in the fight would be Foreman's uppercut, I personally think Tyson would probably walk right into this in a way that basically uses his agression against himself in the sense the punch lands flusher and harder due to Tyson's own momentum of moving forward into the punch. This would likely happen just after Foreman pushed him off and Tyson being the ultra aggressive fighter he is would want to immediately rush Foreman and throw combo's, but as he's coming in focused on that, he'd in my opinion end up eating an uppercut. At the very least this would likely stop Tyson in his tracks and may even buckle him. Then Foreman would immediately become the aggressor and finish him off.

Over the course of a longer fight I think the only way it turns into a long fight is if Tyson can't impose his will and/or land combo's with any kind of consistentcy and that would tell me that Foreman's either hurt him and/or frustrated him and it likely turns into a prolonged beat down, as one thing Tyson can do as well as almost anyone not named Ali, is take a punch.

 

So would I.

Not happening. Tyson was a poor inside fighter. He had the talent for it but he either didn't have the skillset or desire to fight on the inside. He got schooled by Douglas & Holyfield on the inside.

I agree. Although I think it's a matter of styles. Tyson focused on throwing quick shots in succession rather than loading up on one punch. Yes he committed himself 100% but he didn't always load up. There's a difference. He didn't sit down on his punches. Foreman on the other hand, sat down and clubbed. When Tyson sat down and loaded up and punched straight - you saw the Botha fight. That's a display of his full, hidden power. Overall I agree with you.

I agree with this too but the keyword absent should not be forgotten

Here's were we've skipped an important aspect. What if Tyson lands one of his famous right hands while rushing in? He has very fast hands and Foreman's reflexes were average at best. Remember the first punch Tyson ever threw at Holyfied? Furthermore, Foreman particularly doesn't react well to very fast punches landed on him. He gets shaken & staggered. If Tyson lands the rights he did against Holyfield, Foreman will be in trouble. Yes, Tyson was a sucker for uppercuts and Foreman was very sneaky and devastating with his uppercuts (think the Cooney knockout - even though we're talking about young Foreman). However, Tyson has just as good of a chance of landing his clubbing right hand. It's staggering speed and power will shake up Foreman too.

This description reminds me of the Lewis fight. I'm not sure if that belongs here. Conditioning and being active go a very long way in fights. The Tyson against Lewis was very poorly conditioned. Therefore he couldn't recover from punches very quickly like he did against Ruddock (many times) or Tucker (big uppercut). Of course Tucker was no Foreman but he's along the same lines in landing a very good uppercut. Tyson has always been beaten when he's outboxed or outmaneuvered. He's never been outslugged. I think Foreman's the man to do it because as you said - he'll push back Tyson and pound away from a comfortable range. That's the key of the fight. However, if Foreman just tries to trade with Tyson like he did with Lyle - he's in trouble. Even though Foreman hits harder than Tyson, I think Foreman particularly will react worse to Tyson's combination of speed and power in the right hand than brute Tyson will to Foreman's shots. I'm thinking Foreman - Lyle here. But like I said, I expect better from Foreman and avoid a Foreman - Lyle but more of a Foreman - Frazier generalship. I just won't underestimate Tyson's chances of landing that awesome right hand. Foreman's key punch will be the uppercut and Tyson's key punch will be the right hand assisted by a follow up left.

 

What about speed? Reflexes? *OLD* Foreman did not have enough of either *against* Tyson. Here's how I see it. Foreman throws a jab or a right and this isn't at the same speed as Douglas or Holyfield. Tyson dodges it and counters with his own hook or right hand. *OLD* Foreman doesn't have particularly good reflexes and will get hit. He will be staggered by Tyson's signature speed & power.

Yes, Foreman had devastating power and will land but young Tyson was very well conditioned and could take a big shot and come right back. What he wasn't good with is if like Douglas or Holyfield you kept countering him again and again relentlessly or kept hitting him with speedy combinations. Yes Foreman threw combinations and had good workrate but he didn't have the speed to land consistently like Holyfield or Douglas as he would need to do to stop Tyson. Foreman was no Holyfield or Douglas. He isn't going to outbox Tyson.

Although I can see your viewpoint. Just watched the Foreman - Cooper fight. Foreman gave a bad beating to the younger man - even shook him around with a body blow! :shock:

But Tyson was a tough SOB, well conditioned, had fast hands and reflexes, and was more game than given credit for. A combination of those things is more than an Old Foreman can handle.

 

Foreman does not just slug, he smothers and this is where the problems start for Mike.

 

Forman will have the early advntage. Tyson's mentor Cus D'Mato has goten it in to Tyson's head that Forman is imposible for him to beat. I think the first 3 to 5 rounds will go to Forman. If Tyson who has a pretty solid chin can get past those 5 rounds I think he will find the room he needs to start landing effictive punches. Forman probbly hit a bit harder than Tyson. However Forman has one of the worst defences I have seen on a world class boxer. On the other hand Tyson's defence was one of the best.
I see this going two ways. either Forman by ko within 5 rounds or Tyson by ko late in the fight from round 8 and on.

 

Tyson had speed advantages over everyone he fought, he was faster than the 34 year old Evander and still got beaten.

It takes more than speed to beat Foreman.

It takes guts, will and determination.

Tyson was not exactly Gatti in that department.

Even though George was not the same fighter v Young and was poor, he had young on ***** street several times.

Two men beat Foreman in his twenties, and both of them are not comparable to Tyson.

Those two men men were tricky slick crafty quick guys who can go backwards.

Mike ain't slick and tricky or crafty, we all know he can't fight backwards.

He comes to destroy his fighters and so does George, Tyson is faster, better footwork, but he ain't no runner or mover, he will be right there to be hit despite the early head movement.

He can't fight inside well, that helps Foreman.

Bonecrusher stopped Mike from doing really anything by clinching, i think George would do the same except he would hit Mike. He wouldn't be there to survrive like Smith and pick up a paycheck.

And lets forget about the old Foreman now shall we?

Lets pair a unbeaten 1973 Foreman who had a sledge hammer jab against Mike.

In a slug out George wins. Has George ever lost a slug out? NO.

Has Mike Tyson? Yes.

Tyson never beat one guy in his career you can truly say was on Foreman's league in their prime.

 

A truly solid post my good man. :good

 

I think that if Tyson wins, he wins early. He needs to land hard and often on George because once the slower foreman starts landing he is in trouble. The problem for tyson is that as good as he was at knocking out good fighters, Foreman just had such a good chin. I can t see him being stopped early.

 

Tyson doesn't need an early knockout, there's every chance he'll win late. His best bet is to force the lumbering Foreman to come after him, keep moving on the outside, look for openings and move to mid-range when he sense them, unloading combinations and then moving out once again. Foreman will be done by the mid-rounds and Tyson will have more and more success til the ref stops Foreman around the 8th or 9th round. Accumulation and speed kills.

 

Holyfield was a very strategic skilled BOXER who brilliantly timed & picked his shots to beat Tyson to the punch. You cannot compare Holyfield to Foreman.

Tyson was discouraged when outmaneuvered or outboxed. Foreman can do that with his superior reach & strength. However, if this is a slugfest where the two trade blows - Tyson is not going to lose heart. He could take a big punch and come right back to fight. He has shown this several times in his career.

This has as much substance as saying "Even though Tyson was not the same fighter v Douglas and was poor, he had Douglas on ***** street".

I'd rather compare Lyle & Tyson.

Nah. Tyson had poor footwork. Holyfield round 6 KD indicates that.

He will be but he will also have an easier time dodging Foreman's wide punches which are coming at average handspeed.

Big time.

The essence of the fight will be at midrange (Tyson's favor) or long range (Foreman's favor).

He was an inch away from KO against Lyle. He was dropped after a few clean shots. Tyson was never close to getting KO'd even by heavy punchers until after several rounds of getting pummeled. He was still game against Douglas till 8 rounds, still game against Holyfield for the first 7 rounds (yes even after round 6 - although admittedly it's been a while since I've seen the fight). This favors Tyson over Foreman in a slugfest. Tyson lands a few clean shots against the slow reflex Foreman and Foreman just might get knocked down as he did against Lyle. Foreman lands some of his shots on Tyson and Tyson comes right back to counter Foreman. Foreman may taste success only after a few rounds whereas Tyson can get results after a few punches.

If it's going to be a slugfest like Lyle-Foreman, my money is on Tyson and for good reason. Foreman is no boxer like Holyfield.

I am not familiar with any such example prior to the second layoff after Holyfield II. Any version of Tyson after that period was indeed shot. Holy & Douglas both outboxed Tyson.

True.