Roy Jones' Legacy...

Let me set the record straight. Not a Roy Jones fan here by any means. I can't see why he would fight Toney, who at the time was probably the best fighter "pound for pound" when they fought, and avoid the likes of Collins and Lilles or even Benn. We can look back in hindsight and say that Jones dealt with a poor performing Toney (weight drained IMO), but he was in for a tough nights work on paper before the opening ball rang. Toney was equally as tough as any of the three fighters I mentioned, and was far more complex stylistically, better defensively, and far more skilled.

When Jones began to finally get the "pound for pound" mantle during 1995/1996 he probably became far more difficult to deal with when it came to negotiating. With his status having risen significantly in a couple of years, he was the chief. Forgetting the money, fight location, and everything else for a momnent, I don't believe that Jones avoided Collins simply for the reason he feared defeat. Jones never bothered with Collins because "Collins was the champ and a hard man"? Not sure about that. Jones also faced men as equally as hard. Malinga, Toney, and the concrete chinned Merqui Sosa. He stepped into the ring with them, and beat the hell out of all three.

I don't for one minute happen to come to the conlusion that Jones was scared of these fighters. McClellan ending up in a wheelchair, deaf and blind, put Jones' asking price up by a few million IMO. He openly admitted that McClellan's vegetable state had a serious effect on him. He wanted to be paid handsomely for stepping into the ring and risking his life or his opponent's for that matter.

Jones' problem was that he far more business orientated. I don't think during the mid-late 90's it was "I don't fancy my chances against him". The "pound for pound" mantle went to his head. This made him a difficult man to deal with. He was never going to go head overseas in his prime.

 

Jones was a great fighter but the plaudits he gets on internet web sites are way over the top.

He doesn't make a top 10 at 175

An elite fighter doesn't have a movement like 'Roycott' thrown at him.

When a drug test that his lawyers couldn't wriggle him out of was finally made standard some predicted a quick fall from grace for Roy. He promptly got KO'd by the very average Tarver in his next fight...

I agree with Tigeredge... because he dominated mostly uninspiring opponents people go way overboard.

 

How can some people say that Hagler ducked McCallum or Curry?

Curry was destroyed by Honeyghan in 1985.

McCallum was not a big name around that period.

Hagler was fading by 1986 when he fought Mugabi but i believe Hagler would have still beaten McCallum who was a great fighter.

Roy fought a old 40 year old McCallum and is given props?

How can you compare Marvin not fighting McCallum to Jones not fighting Darius?

Darius was the true linear Champ, Roy was not, it was more logical that Jones fight Darius to confirm the undisputed title.

Darius beat Hill before Jones. He unified the title before Jones. But Jones did not fight him.

Darius was undefeated, while Jones was still fighting postmen, rubbish men and police officers instead. Marvin never did that or the Fab Four.

McCallum or Curry or whoever people claim Marvin did not fight were not factors in the Middleweight division in 1985-1987 when MARVELOUS fought Hearns, Mugabi (although he was a Light-Middle, could anyone deny the night he fought Hagler that he was at least the 2nd best Middleweight in the world on that performance?) and then Leonard (which was a super fight five years in the making.)

 

I really don't see how a man who had perhaps the second or maybe 3rd longest reign at lightheavyweight, unified just about every title including even some of the less significant ones, doesn't make top 10 for that weight class. His opposition may not reach the levels of Moore, Charles, Maxim, etc. But a lot of the guys he defeated were well better than average fighters and he beat them in more than convincing fashion. The Tarver loss came when he was 35 years of age and after a year of rapidly gaining 20 Lbs to fight at heavywieght, then losing the same 20 Lbs just as quickley. The Tarver defeats mean nothing when looking at the man's legacy.

 

Your so full of **** its unbelievable. Yes Jones ducked Tarver to face Ruiz before facing Tarver 3times when older and beating him past his prime :nut

Eubanks ducked noone? Have you ever heard Eubanks, he openly admitted to not wanting to face the top Americans, openly admitted the only way he'd face Jones was if the WBO threatened to strip him for not facing him, saying he may win but both of their. Again the fight was offered to him numerous times and he didnt fancy it

Collins wanted £6million ($10million) to face RJJ and he blatantly stood no chance of winning a round let alone the fight, in his prime he got schooled by McCallum, Johnson and Kalambay. Have you considered he priced himself out? Why would Jones fight McCallum and Johnson who both beat Collins?

Benn openly wanted £15-20million ($30million) to face Jones, Don King talked about this but could he really deliver the money? Jones did turn this 1 down, but King would have had so many clauses it really could well be a 'slave contract', surely a fighter has the right to avoid being ass ****ed by Don?

Why would Jones duck B Level opponents and fight A Level opponents like Toney/Hopkins?

I see you forget to mention Jones beat Mallinga who beat beat Benn once and got robbed against him another time AND perhaps deserved a decision over Eubanks and Rochiagani 2 other titlists.

As for Lyles he wanted no part of Jones and wasnt near the same level, a 19yo Jones beat him in the trials and no it wasn't close Jones controlled it with movement, landed the bigger flusher shots and outlanded Lyles, in the pros Lyles wouldnt win a round, Plus Lyles was 4years older at 23yo and Jones only a 19yo. Jones clearly vastly improved after that too.

'95 was a disapointing year but Jones couldn't make people fight him and he had to goto 175 to get big fights, it wasn't like he needed to goto 175 because he was too big for 168 and McCallum/Hill were clearly better than Collins/Lyles/Benn anyway

 

Powerpuncher.

The McCallum and Hill that fought Jones was not better than Collins/Lyles or Benn.

McCallum was 40.

Hill got his titles taken away from him by Darius and Jones still never fought Him.

Hill had more fight left in him than Benn, but he wasn't clearly better. Benn in his prime was better than Hill and pre and post McClennan had a better run 1993-95.

Benn had beaten McClennan, who i think was better than any fighter that Hill beat.

The collins in 1996 was a belt holder and confident, diffferent than the Collins who fought a younger closer to prime McCallum, it doesn't mean Roy shouldn't fight Collins because Collins lost years earlier.

Lyles was quality and a reigning champ.

Benn was past it post McClennan, but was still a reigning World Champ.

Jones fought postmen, Coppers and rubbish men for less money. But wanted over the odds for competitive fights.

Don't tell me Vinny Paz was better than Lyles/Benn/Collins.

 

Toney was his best win -easily. I agree that it was a dangerous fight for him to take and commend him for it. My regret (and his) is that he didn't continue to challenge himself. A man blessed with that level of talent had less to fear than he thought. Point two is this: Benn-McClellan scared him. It happened three months after his bout with Toney. Toney was the last real, live risk he took for years. It changed his priorities -and perhaps kept him safer, but it affected his legacy for the worse.

Did you hear that Jones required that Sosa come in under weight? I heard it.

Not only that, but Senior and Junior were just starting out they had a contract -I think it was with NBC- and it ended partly because the executives were fed up with Senior's insistence on fighting zombies for millions. One of his early fights in Florida was a real problem. The guy was touted as someone but was actually a club fighter with a phony record.

The point is that Jones took minimal risks in terms of how many, and how often. That is undisputable.

That's right. Jones was afraid of permanent injury. Thus his defensive posture in and out of the ring after Benn-McClellan and perhaps even before.

 

You have accused Stonehands of being "full of ****", yet you mention that a 40 year old McCallum was clearly better than Collins and Benn, etc. I don't even think thats up for debate. McCallum was three divisions above his best weight and was a shell of himself. I would be embarrassed mentioning that version of McCallum in support of Jones quality of opposition. You make matters even worse for yourself by claiming that McCallum was better than the 95/96 versions of Benn and Collins.

A Redrooster quality statement if I've ever seen one.

The name "McCallum" has clearly went to your head in a big way, without some thought being put into how far past his prime he was at the time.

 

He didn't "fancy" it. Who's full of what? Eubank said that he would not duck anyone and that he would have fought both Toney and Jones. I believe him. Many fighters don't "want" to face dangerous guys... but they will and they do. Jones' reluctance was beyond the pale but I see that you won't let facts get in your way.

Even if I didn't already address this, it is barely worth a response. Collins didn't price himself out. Jones turned both him and Liles down when they offered to unify the SMW title by fighting him.

Your avatar suggests that you have no class. Now I'm convinced.

Elite, all time Greats cannot live on Toney and Hopkins alone.

Please. He also beat Sosa who got beat by Nunn and stopped by Benn. Next!

Then why not whip him and start unifying the title?

Wrong again! Jones and Jones management and even HBO were saying how Jones had "run out of challengers at SMW". Meanwhile they completely ignored Liles and the British bangers still campaigning -AND WITH TITLES!

...You're too stupid to even realize when you get a beating. If you were nearby, I'd slap you in your smart mouth.

 

He should have kicked on after the Toney win and fought who the boxing public wanted him to fight. Not just what the boxing public wanted, but what he needed for himself to prove greatness. How easily he was beating the likes of Thornton and Brannon, etc, should have told him something. Truely great fighters can only have these type of fights for so long, then they need to get the juices flowing with a sense of danger being thrown upon them. As I said, his stature after the Toney win went to his head. He wasn't willing to go overseas and he always felt he deserved the lions share when it came to money.

The Sosa fight was a catchweight. However, I don't think it was a tactic Jones carved for himself to have a better chance of winning. The Sosa camp agreed with the catchweight. Jones at that point in his career was natural super-middleweight. Looking at Jones five years later against Telesco, you could see he still wasn't a natural light-heavyweight. IMO, the 171 limit was based upon Jones not willing to come in at the full weight limit, with the Sosa camp probably saying "Yeah, that suits us as well actually".

I have just checked the weights of Sosa prior and after fighting Jones. He was weighing around 161-174 on a regular basis during the early 90's. Most of these were the mid 160's. He weighed in against Jones at 171. And during 99-00 he finished his career with the weights being 169, 168, 169, 171, for his last four fights.

Jones took minimal risks, no question. I don't know what he was thinking when he fought the likes to Frazier and Kelley. Real geniune journeymen who happened to be part-time boxers. One a policeman and the other a garbage collector. I can't even think of someone like Leonard entertaining the thought of these type of opponents on his C.V in or around his prime.

Jones does have some really decent challengers on his record, just not enough dangerous ones. He should have seeked out the dangerous ones. Leonard chased them, and Duran went out his depth. Dam, Duran signing for the likes of Hagler and Hearns makes Jones look like a ***** cat in comparison.

Jones should have lined up everyone like a skittles and walked through them. I think he could have dealt with Collins and Dariuz M, easily.

 

Benn pre-GMAN was on the level of an OLD McCallum if hes lucky, post-Gman he was shot to pieces, a pre'94 McCallum beats any version of Benn anyway and few would debate otherwise

Collins was outclassed by McCallum and even a 40yo McCallum would still beat Collins, just a complete different class of fighter

McCallum was still good enough to give Toney a very close encounter a few months later and he still gave Jones 1 of his tougher fights despite been past prime

 

1. Listen you muppet Eubanks (Eubank isn't his real name) is on record as saying the only circumstances he'd face Jones Jr is if his, Eubanks then says. Toney crassly called him and Benn out in '93 on British national TV. Eubanks made far more money than Toney/Jones and wasnt risking his cash cow status against them. Chris was my hero growing up but he openly said he didn't care about legacy, only money

2. Your a fool who knows nothing of the boxing game or its politics. Neither Collins or Jones were big enough draws and he was in no position to demand $6million.

3. Your so ******ed that you can't understand doing business with Don King can see a fighter robbed senseless? Thats nothing to do with class, but as a ****** you wouldn't appreciate that

4. Toney and Hopkins are arguably better than any prime fighters Sugar Ray Robinson faced

5. So yoru ignoring the fact he dominated a fighter who twice beat 1 of the men hes supposed to be ducking, good thinking ******. And yes Sosa was a decent gatekeeper fought as a time passing fight and he beat him far more emphatically than Benn/Nunn.

6. Because this is business and fights take 2 parties to make, if other belt holders won't fight Jones for less than a kings ranson it makes them very hard to make, but your clearly too dumb to understand that

7. Which 'bangers' were these? Jones was taking fighters out in 2rounds that went 12 with Eubanks/Benn, Eubanks rarely put anyone away and Collins had zero pop. Benn also lost to pretty much any technical boxer he faced.

Bottom line is JOnes couldnt get big fights at 168 for whatever reason, he was a natural 168lber who went up in weight for bigger challenges and bigger paydays

8. If thats so Mr Internet Warrior where do you live? Perhaps I should put your parents out of their missery of looking after a down syndrome child...

 

McCallum was 40 years old, well above his prime weight, and was simply nowhere near the class of Collins and Benn at that time. McCallum at his prime weight during the late 80's was better than any version of Collins and Benn. I agree on that. But Jones never fought that version. McCallum beating Collins means what?

A 40 year old McCallum would have beaten Collins? I couldn't care if McCallum gave Toney a close fight. During that particular time Toney was in the wilderness and wasn't at his best. He was at point his career when he was hitting a slump.

He gave Jones one his tougher fights? Are you seriously at the wind up and seeking disagreement for the sake of it? McCallum hardly layed a glove on Jones and looked extremely slow and ponderous. It was one of the easiest 12 round victories of Jones' career. He won his rounds comprehensively and the judges cards told the tale of the fight. 120-107 across the board with the extra point for the knockdown.

I can live with some opinions and have respect for them. But yours are so far fetched and wide of the mark I find them stupid and almost unreal to be honest. You're opinion on Jones-McCallum deserves to be ridiculed. :good

 

McCallum simply showed he was a class above Collins, albeit he was 6years younger but his technique was still leagues better than Collins and would still beat him in '94-'96. Collins should have dropped 1decision against Eubanks anyway.

McCallum arguably beat Toney in '92 and went onto be WBC LHW champ, he lost to Tiozzo but Tiozzo would beat the stuffing out of Collins too.

Benn pre-Gman may have been better than McCallum in '94, but would he have beat him even then? After Gman Benn was a shot to pieces fighter, broke jaw, bust kidneys, shadow on the brain so many injuries its ridicolous

If McCallum faced Benn in '93 who is the likely the winner? McCallum strong favourate too technical. What about '95, McCallum because Benn is shot. What about '94 pre-Gman? Maybe Benn stands a shot but he probably still gets his ears boxed off

Whenever Benn and Collins fought technically better boxers who were near world class they lost, Benn lost to Mallinga TWICE, lost to Watson, and you think hes beating even a 40yo McCallum?

 

So his losses hurt his legacy ? Well guess suger ray leonard is less of a hall of famer becuase he got ktfo by terry norris and a past his prime hector comacho ! You haters need to shut the hell up !