Frazier vs. Marciano

"Joe would have done better than Rocky against his opponents."

That would be pretty hard to do. NO ONE in the history of the sport going back to Figg actually did better against the men he faced than Marciano.

"No one knows for sure what would have happened."

This does sort of weaken this argument. People who agree with you agree with you. But anyone who has any doubts at all that all of Rocky's successes would be easily matched by Frazier while Frazier's failures would without doubt be shared by Rocky find it unconvincing.

I do agree that Ali and Foreman would be a viewed by almost everyone as tougher opponents than the best Marciano fought. But Foreman proves nothing as Frazier was blown out badly twice. NONE of the other serious claiments to top 10 ATG status were blown out this badly twice by any opponent. Nor did Frazier prove anything like Foreman's toughest opponent. Foreman lost to Ali and Young, was on the floor and in serious trouble against Lyle, and taken late into the fight twice by Peralta. It seems to me that one could draw the conclusion that because Frazier had so much trouble with this big puncher, he might also have had difficulty with other big punchers such as Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, and Liston, rather than drawing the convoluted conclusion that Foreman simply overwhelms other ATG's as easily as he did Frazier.

 

Styles make fights and I can't see Marciano beating Foreman. George had trouble with boxers, such as Ali, Young and early in his career, Peralta BUT the only slugger that gave him trouble, and a lot of it, was Ron Lyle.

I have talked to many of the top boxing historians and experts and most all of them say that Frazier would do at least as well, if not better, if he fought the same opponents as Rocky did.

Cox wrote the following:

When looking at Marciano’s opponents one must ask the question “Is there one person that Marciano beat that Joe Frazier would not beat?” The answer is clearly no. Joe Frazier would have little trouble with Marciano’s opponents and would easily have gone 49-0 against them. Frazier’s only career defeats were to Muhammad Ali and George Foreman. How would Marciano have fared against Frazier’s opponents? Marciano would be an underdog to Ali and would likely lose a decision. Ali was more susceptible to a left hook, Frazier’s bread and butter punch, than he was to a right hand, which was Rocky’s best shot. Cus D’Amato once said that, “No swarming heavyweight who ever lived could beat George Foreman coming to him.” Marciano would have had the same trouble trying to get inside George’s long arms and massive uppercuts, as did the bobbing and weaving Frazier. It seems highly unlikely that Marciano could overcome the freakish power of the much larger Foreman in a slugfest. Frazier holds a win over Muhammad Ali and defeated other quality heavyweights such as Jerry Quarry who were superior to most of Marciano's competition. Had the two all time greats switched era's Frazier would have been 49-0 and Marciano would likely have had losses to Ali and Foreman on his record.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rocky.html

 

Who would Frazier lose too? I can't see anyone, really.

Frazier fought the better opponents early in his career and lasted just as long as Rocky did before being beat by Foreman. Rocky had 1 Pro bout in March of 1947, then went back to the Amateurs, then started up as a Pro again in July 1948. He had his last bout against Moore in September 1955. That's 7 years, 2 months.

Frazier started in August 1965, and lost to Foreman in January 1973. That's 7 years, 5 months.

 

I don't understand your logic.

 

"I can't see Marciano beating Foreman."

Vis-a-vis Frazier, he doesn't have to. Foreman ko'd Frazier easily twice with Frazier hardly landing a meaningful punch.

Actually, though, I can see Marciano winning, but I hate to make predictions of this sort. Marciano had a ferocious right cross. Foreman simply throwing wide punches "from outside the window" as Chuvalo put it leaves himself wide open to a right counter, and unlike Frazier, Marciano has the tools to take advantage of this weakness.

"I have talked to many of the top boxing historians and experts most all of them say Frazier would do at least as well, if not better, if he fought the same opponents as Rocky did."

I would like someone to explain how he could really do better than winning them all and knocking out all his rated opponents. Even removing Ali and Foreman, Frazier didn't accomplish that, and I don't consider Foster, Quarry, Ellis, Chuvalo, Bugner, Bonavena, etc., a better group than Walcott, Charles, Moore, old Louis, Matthews, Layne, LaStarza, etc

As for all these "top boxing historians"--I respect your opinion, but this is merely an appeal to authority and a rather vague one at that. These boxers are on film. We can see and study them and judge for ourselves.

 

I agree that anyone can judge for themselves by looking at the films, BUT if you look at Jack Johnson or Harry Greb, they just don't look like all time Greats, BUT they are..

When they say Frazier could have done better, is that they told me that Frazier would have stopped them sooner and he would also stop a few that Rocky didn't. I have worked with many top boxing historians and I respect all their opinions. I also know most of the members of IBRO, which I am a charter member, and I respect them as well.

Again, no one knows for sure and that is what I LOVE about boxing, we can debate it for ever and still no one can say for sure what would actually happen. You have your opinion and I have mine, and I respect yours as well others.

 

Frazier started his career at a normal 21. Marciano at 25. Marciano still got to the championship and held it for 3 and 1/2 years and was still winning fights past 30--LaStarza, Charles twice, Cockell, and Moore. Frazier began to go back at 28. If he started at 25 and fought Walcott at 29 and 30, LaStarza at 30, Charles at 31, and Moore at 32, he might have had more trouble than you, and Monte Cox, assume. I can see him possibly losing to either Walcott, Charles, or Moore.

 

That's where we disagree. Frazier had some very tough opponents. What if Rocky fought Ali, Foreman etc., I don't think he would be the same either.

If Frazier fought Rocky's opponents, he would not have taken the beating he received from Ali and Foreman.

 

What if he starts at 21 and fights Walcott, Charles and Moore like he did Quarry, Ellis and Ali at 26-27 years of age?

Whatever age Marciano started his boxing career at shouldn't make him greater than other boxers.

 

Frazier would have no trouble beating Walcott, Charles or Moore at that time in their careers. Moore was KO'ed by Patterson a year after Rocky beat him and Patterson beat him easier.

 

"I also know most of the members of IBRO, which I am a charter member, and I respect them as well."

I just looked up IBRO and their ratings of heavyweights at Cyberboxing:

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Johnson
4. Dempsey
5. Marciano
6. Holmes
7. Jeffries
8. Foreman
9. Liston
10. Frazier

They also have a list of the top 25 fighters p4p--Marciano is #23. Frazier is not on it.

What about the AP end of the century poll by a panel of experts:
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Marciano
4. Dempsey
5. Johnson
6. Holmes
7. Liston
8. Frazier
9. Langford
10. Walcott

1980 poll of the Boxing Writers of America (by HBO)
1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Marciano
4. Dempsey
5. Johnson

1978 poll of black sportwriters (by Ebony)
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Johnson
4. Dempsey
5. Marciano
6. Frazier

This is kind of an odd outcome if "most all" think Frazier is better than Marciano. Curiously, Louis wins the IBRO heavyweight poll, and Moore and Charles are #1 and #2 at lightheavy. All three are in the IBRO top 25 p4p.

 

If we talking Frazier being the same age as Marciano when he fought these men, I don't agree it is that easy to tell. I also think it very possible that the Patterson of 1956 beats the Frazier of 1976.

 

If Frazier is born in 1923, he would be fighting Louis, not Moore. A fight with Louis in 1947 would be interesting.

 

marciano by ko. He would have connected with that big uppercut square on fraziers chin and that would've been all she wrote. You just can't fight like frazier did against a devastating puncher like rocky and survive.