Poll: Is Roy Jones a top 10 all time great lighheavyweight?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mr. magoo, Mar 17, 2009.


Page 3 of 6
  1. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

    50,373
    23,453
    Jan 3, 2007

    I'm not going to disect the WHOLE list now, but there are definately some names on there that I disagree with.

    I really can't see what Billy Conn, John Conteh, Victor Galindez, Saad Muhammad or even a few others did to warrant being rated above Jones.

    Conn for example had 12 career losses, only Ko'd 15 of his 65 opponents, and had all but four world title victories. How in the hell does that top a near 7 year reign, 14 championship wins, a title unification, and the claim to having won belts in 4 weight classes ( lineal or not? ) I certainly hope that people aren't giving him an overabundance of extra points for his losing effort against Louis.
     
    mr. magoo, Mar 17, 2009
    mr. magoo, Mar 17, 2009
    #31
  2. Ezzard

    Ezzard Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,070
    19
    Nov 11, 2005
    10 better fighters at the weight at least...
     
    Ezzard, Mar 18, 2009
    Ezzard, Mar 18, 2009
    #32
  3. WhataRock

    WhataRock Loyal Member Full Member

    34,307
    17,099
    Jul 29, 2004
    I dont know if I would have Conn over Roy and I agree with you magoo that a few of those names dont seem justified over Roy in my eyes.

    But especially when looking up the old boys you have really look past the raw numbers.
    So many greats did so much of their best work outside of title fights, as they were a lot harder to come by those days obviously.

    From memory Billy had a patchy record early..but as a 16-17 year old boy, who wasnt within cooee of 175 at that stage. He had a pretty good run of wins and Im sure a decent period of domination of the weight after he grew into a man.

    I cant get boxrec on my Ps3 all the time for some reason...but from memory names like McCoy, Zale, Apostoli, Pastor and Im pretty sure Teddy Yarosz appear on Billy's record when he weighed at the limit. And Im half certain Im naming mostly non-title fights in there..which is the point, you can see that having a dozen defences of trinket can sometimes be inferior to a couple of the proper title, when you factor in all the fights that took place to get to that title and whilst not defending it
     
    WhataRock, Mar 18, 2009
    WhataRock, Mar 18, 2009
    #33
  4. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    12,644
    3,451
    Jul 10, 2005
    I would not compare what Jones did at heavyweight, to what Fitz did.

    Jones imo didnt win the "Title". He had to beat Lewis, not John Ruiz, I dont know why people over glory this win here as if Jones won the heavyweight title of the world. He saw a lesser man than Lewis hold the WBA title(That was strip from Lewis like a month after unify)
    And Jones won, but it was not like he beat Lewis or Fitz beating Corbett. These guys were the REAL champions.

    I give credit for Fitz, I give credit for Spinks(He did win fight 1 vs Holmes) but I cant give that to Jones unless it was Lewis, and not Ruiz on the other side of the ring.
     
    Dempsey1238, Mar 18, 2009
    Dempsey1238, Mar 18, 2009
    #34
  5. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

    50,373
    23,453
    Jan 3, 2007
    This is very true.
     
    mr. magoo, Mar 18, 2009
    mr. magoo, Mar 18, 2009
    #35
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    111,976
    45,910
    Mar 21, 2007
    12 - career losses. Let's break those down.

    7 of the 12 losses come in Conn's first 12-15 months as a proffessional. A young fighter, overmatched. NONE of these losses were at the weight in question, 175.

    2 of the 12 losses were against Joe Louis, one of the two best HW's in history. NEITHER was at 175.

    This leaves three losses.

    Young Corbett III. NOT at 175. Supposedly, Conn was partially blinded by a headbutt. Avenged


    Solly Krieger. Conn's SOLE LOSS at 175. Twice avenged.

    Teddy Yarosz. Middleweight contest. Twice avenged.



    In short, the reality of Conn's LHW career is ONE LOSS, TWICE AVENGED. Here is a really good example of the danger's of straight up boxrec breakdown.
     
    McGrain, Mar 18, 2009
    McGrain, Mar 18, 2009
    #36
  7. WhataRock

    WhataRock Loyal Member Full Member

    34,307
    17,099
    Jul 29, 2004
    Yeah I thought it was about that.
     
    WhataRock, Mar 18, 2009
    WhataRock, Mar 18, 2009
    #37
  8. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

    50,373
    23,453
    Jan 3, 2007
    Okay, but his losses are not the only thing that I commented on. Do you really believe that Conn has a case for being rated above Jones?
     
    mr. magoo, Mar 18, 2009
    mr. magoo, Mar 18, 2009
    #38
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    111,976
    45,910
    Mar 21, 2007
    Sure. The case would be based upon something like - he fought better guys and he fought more often.

    I have Jones above Conn - but if could see a list with the reverse being true. The bottom line for me is, Jones's slot at LHW will be decided by a poster's criteria. There are definitely - definitely 10 fighters that could be ranked above Jones on pure resume at the weight, for example.

    The Jones range, IMO, would be something like 5-12, which is wide, but he's a difficult subject.
     
    McGrain, Mar 18, 2009
    McGrain, Mar 18, 2009
    #39
  10. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

    42,723
    260
    Jul 22, 2004
    Yes Ruiz wasn't the real champion but Corbet was a 180lb man, so a LHW beating a 180lbs man is far easier than beating 230lb-250lb men like Ruiz/Lewis.

    Jones beating Ruiz is like Duran beating Barkley, skill conquoring massive size disadvantages

    In Fitz's day it was simply easier to be a MW moving upto HW because the size difference was far far less
     
    PowerPuncher, Mar 18, 2009
    PowerPuncher, Mar 18, 2009
    #40
  11. MAG1965

    MAG1965 Loyal Member banned

    34,796
    64
    Dec 1, 2008
    Spinks proved more by taking on tougher guys. In my mind.
     
    MAG1965, Mar 18, 2009
    MAG1965, Mar 18, 2009
    #41
  12. MaliSlamusrex

    MaliSlamusrex Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,249
    1
    Nov 10, 2008
    I am putting him in because he could beat any of the ATG LHW, he might not have the best record but he has the skills.
     
    MaliSlamusrex, Mar 18, 2009
    MaliSlamusrex, Mar 18, 2009
    #42
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    111,976
    45,910
    Mar 21, 2007
    You'd think there never was a Bob Foster, the way these guys talk.
     
    McGrain, Mar 18, 2009
    McGrain, Mar 18, 2009
    #43
  14. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

    50,373
    23,453
    Jan 3, 2007

    Where would you place Foster and does Jones come close on your list?
     
    mr. magoo, Mar 18, 2009
    mr. magoo, Mar 18, 2009
    #44
  15. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

    27,199
    88
    Dec 26, 2007
    Actually taking a look at the names they beat might clarify your vision.

    Muhammad holds wins over: John Conteh X2, Marvin Johnson X2, Yacqui Lopez X2, Mate Parlov, Vonzell Johnson, Lotti Mwale, Richie Kates, Murray Sutherland, Jerry Martin, etc.

    Jones holds wins over: Virgil Hill, Montell Griffin, Mike McCallum, Antonio Tarver, Clinton Woods, Julio Cesar Gonzalez, Reggie Johnson, etc.

    When taken into context this shouldn't be too hard to decipher. The era Jones dominated was far from a top one.
     
    Sweet Pea, Mar 18, 2009
    Sweet Pea, Mar 18, 2009
    #45
Page 3 of 6