Frazier vs. Marciano

"don't you think he was past his prime?"

Well, this was his peak period, with wins over Joey Maxim (2), Elmer Ray, two great efforts against Louis with most seeing him the deserving winner of their first fight, Ole Tandberg, Harold Johnson, Omelio Agramonte, Johnny Shkor, Hein Ten Hoff, an impressive knockout of Charles which most would consider his greatest win, and a successful defense against Charles, and then a great effort against Marciano.

Without these 19 fights, Walcott would be at best a footnote in heavyweight history. Frankly, there is no evidence at any point that Walcott was "over the hill." The two victories over Charles and the first Marciano fight were among his most impressive performances.

By the way, Frazier was 3-4-1 in his last 8 fights.

These kind of stats can be misleading. Both men were fighting only top men.

 

"Don't you think Frazier would get to old Louis, Charles, and Walcott?"

And if Dempsey had never fought Gibbons or Tunney, my guess it would be an almost unanimous opinion that Dempsey would finish them early.

How many would pick Marty Marshall to beat Liston? Hasim Rahman to ko Lewis? Jimmy Young to beat Foreman? Norton to beat Ali? Schmeling to KO Louis?

Anytime you jerk an ATG out of his era and take him back to another era and then match him with the second-level fighters of that era, he obviously is going to be favored over all of them. The oddity here is that I am not certain that I would favor a 31 year old Frazier over a 33 year old Charles. I think that is a pick-um fight. Frazier had gone back quite a ways by then, perhaps more than Charles. A Moore fight when Frazier is 32 would be plenty tough also. I can see Moore winning it.

"Do you think Marciano would easily knock down or knock out George Chuvalo and Jerry Quarry."

Quarry was stopped 6 times in 66 fights or 1 time every 11 fights. That is not particularly durable. Louis, Matthews, LaStarza, Charles, Walcott, and even Savold were not stopped that frequently per fight. I see no reason to think Marciano couldn't have stopped Quarry.

Chuvalo was tough as they come. I think Marciano might well have stopped him on cuts or swellings like Frazier and Foreman did. Whether he could have knocked him down or out is unknowable. Frazier stopped him on an injury. Foreman hurt him and had him against the ropes but Chuvalo was lasting okay until the ref decided to stop it, in my opinion unnessarily, but it was a judgement call for the ref to make.

 

Marciano by KO.

 

Walcott had just come off a win over Charles. I would be quite willing to bet on him against any of these contenders, period. Ellis was probably the best of them, and as I argued in an earlier thread, it is difficult to find in all of boxing history a man who was so ordinary at a lighter weight who then quickly moved up and cleaned out the heavyweight contenders. You spin this as proving Ellis suddenly became great. I spin it as raising questions about the quality of the other contenders of the late '60's, who, after all, with the exception of Bonavena, proved little more than punching bags for Frazier and Ali.

 

To be fair, I think Quarry was a legitimately good fighter even if he DID serve as a punching bag for Ali and Frazier.

 

"They rate Rocky higher because he was unbeaten. On a head-to-head match-up, most picked Frazier."

I am pleased that they rate on history rather than on speculation.

"If Walcott and Charles were in their prime, they would have given Rocky a run for his money too."

Walcott and Charles in their primes would give ANYONE a run for his money.

After all, these fighters we are talking about are among the best boxing has produced. Louis has been selected now and then as the greatest heavyweight. Moore and Charles as the greatest lightheavyweight. All three were on IBRO's top 25 p4p and among the top 15 of THE RING'S best of the 80 years from 1922 to 2002. Not bad. And Walcott made the AP top ten heavyweights of the century list. I don't think anyone has an easy time with these men.

 

I didn't mean to imply he wasn't a good fighter, but I don't think his record is so outstanding to put him above Walcott, Charles, Moore, etc. If he had fought Marciano, I don't think he would have been one of Marciano's five toughest opponents.

 

Upsets happen but you could say the same about Marciano facing Frazier's opposition. Who knows how he would deal with a 200+ lb fighter with the same come forward pressure style as him since he never fought one?

The difference is though that Marciano is generally thought to have been in his prime at the time of those fights because he started boxing so late. He did not have the wear and tear that Frazier did by his 30's as he had not fought for as long.

Being fair you'd have to match-up a prime championship form Frazier against Charles and Moore.

You can look at their records or you can look at their fights. Watching Quarry's fights it's obvious that he has a granite jaw but he also cut easily.

Lets pick apart those 6 stoppage losses:

Cut stoppage against Frazier after taking trendemous punishment for 7 rounds in what was the FOTY of 1968.

"KO" loss to Chuvalo after taking the count of 8 and rising up a little too late.

Cut stoppage after 3 rounds against Ali. He was not even hurt.

Stopped against Ali because Ali pointed out to the referee that Quarry was not competitive enough. Again not hurt nor close to going down.

Another cut stoppage against Frazier but this time he was beaten badly and would've probably been knocked out if the fight had continued.

Past prime TKO loss to Ken Norton, stopped on his feet after taking a huge amount of punishment.

Walcott (KO'd 6 times), Charles (KO'd 7 times), Savold (KO'd 10 times) and Cockell (KO'd 9 times) had all been flattened for the count of 10 in previous fights, Cockell and Charles even at lighter weights.

 

Fair enough--and I was wrong about Cockell. He was stopped 9 times in 81 fights or 1 per nine fights. I removed him from my post.

But I stand by my point that Quarry was not particularly difficult to stop.
He simply did not have good head movement or defensive skills. Not surprisingly the better fighters pounded him into helplessness.

Comparing Quarry with Savold:

Quarry--stopped 6 times in 66 fights--1 every 11 fights.
Savold--stopped 10 times in 137 fights--1 every 13.7 fights.

One could say for Savold, though, that five of his stoppages came before he was a contender and still learning his craft. From 1937 to 1952, fighting a great many top contenders, Savold was stopped 5 times, by Lem Franklin, Harry Bobo, Elmer Ray, Joe Louis, and Rocky Marciano. Quarry might have had a better chin, but off what I've seen of Savold--only against Louis and Marciano--he has much better defensive skills. Savold could slip and roll with punches and was a fairly elusive target.

 

They were rated so high when they were in their prime, not when they fought Rocky. You can not tell me that the Louis that fought Rocky was the best of all-time. When he came back after the war he wasn't the same fighter, and he was even further down hill when he came back from retirement, won't you agree.

 

Very good points...Walcott was a late bloomer and the first fight vs Louis should have been a win...Its like telling Kelly Pavlik that B-Hop is over the hill...yea get in the ring with him...in Walcotts case his power in either hand was excellent but that was the icing on the cake to great foot movement and great ring generalship....Walcott was able to stay fit once he got into the bigger money..early on he had to work, then train......either way the Walcott of Marciano1 would have beaten a lot of guys that were or became Champs that night...I would not be surprised if some of the best..he almost beat Louis and Marciano....almost

 

True BUT who did Frazier lose to, Foreman and Ali twice each. Both Ali and Foreman were near the top of their game. The Foreman and Ali that fought Frazier would have beaten any Walcott opponent. Walcott did beat Maxim twice BUT they were both very close decisions, one was a MD and the other was a SD.

Tell you the truth, we put up a monument of Jersey Joe in Camden and I was the guest speaker at the event. Also I MC'ed the unveiling of the Rocky Marciano Stamp and a few days later MC'ed the unveiling of the Joe Louis Memorial Park Monument. Marciano's brother asked me to MC the event for Rocky.

 

I agree, I was just watching Charles fights against Coley Wallace and Bob Satterfield just before his Marciano fight...still a very crafty and lethal puncher at heavyweight and Walcott also would have his way with them

 

Quarry was stopped by much better fighters. Ali (2), Frazier (2), Norton (1) and Chuvalo (1) when he missed read the count. This was the only time he was counted out. After his 2nd lose to Frazier he was finished as a serious contender.

Savold use to live and train in Paterson New Jersey, where I was born and lived, and I talked to several of his sparring partners and they all said that he was washed up when he fought Louis and Marciano.

 

When Quarry lost to Machen he wasn't in shape and he just turned 21 years old, so he was still learning his craft.