Frazier vs. Marciano

You got a good point BUT still 10-9 and 3 of those wins were by either SD or MD.

Thanks ! I was the guest speaker when they unveiled monument.

 

Actually, both men fought 8 different men who were rated in the top 10 when they fought--Frazier fought Bonavena (2), Chuvalo, Ramos, Quarry (2), Ellis (2), Ali (3), Foreman (2), and Bugner.
Marciano fought LaStarza (2), Layne, Louis, Matthews, Walcott (2), Charles (2), Cockell, and Moore.
Frazier had 13 fights against these men. He won 9 and lost 4 and scored 5 knockouts. He did not knock out Ali, Foreman, Bonavena, or Bugner. In fairness, this is the list from The Boxing Register, but perhaps Bob Foster should be on the list as the lightheavy champion. He was not rated at heavyweight and the Register does not list him as a rated opponent.
Marciano had 11 fights against his rated opposition, won them all with 9 knockouts, knocking all 8 men out either in the first fight or the rematch.

Both men fought 13 ever rated opponents off your figures. Frazier was 15-4 with 11 knockouts. Marciano was 16-0 with 14 knockouts. Frazier failed to knock out four of these men. Marciano knocked out all 13 either in the first match or in a rematch.

Trying to be as fair as possible, Frazier met tougher opponents in Ali and Foreman than Marciano ever fought. I don't think the rest of his opposition matches Marciano's--I would disagree with you on that point. Frazier lost 4 of 5 to Foreman and Ali. He fought Ali tough, but was easy pickings for Foreman. Would Marciano have done as well? I admit I don't know. Both men had advantages over the other. Frazier was bigger. Marciano appears off the films to have a better chin and a bigger punch, and I think better defensive skills.

 

But look at who he beat in those ten wins. Elmer Ray twice, one of the better contenders in history. Lee Q murray, who ray arcel called the divisions best puncher besides joe louis. Tommy Gomez and Hatchetman sheppard, both ruthless knockout artists, big skilled boxers like hein ten hoff and joe baksi, Ezzard charles twice hall of fame great, harold johnson another hall of famer, jimmy bivins a great boxer and top member of black murders row, and last but not least most believe he deserved the decision over heavyweight king joe louis. thats a hell of a win resume is you ask me. better than most champions. Walcott beat many of them handily too.

 

so you don't think it had anything to do with Walcotts talent? Eddie Futch called walcott "one of the greatest ring technicians of all time"

 

I think we should be concentrating less on marcianos opposition and more on the fact frazier did not do well against punchers, and failed to test himself vs many of the punchers of his era.

 

I remember coming across a interview with Jack Kearns from 1950 in which Kearns maintained that the heavyweights of 1950 were a better group than the heavyweights of the Dempsey era. Kearns maintained that the 1950 group, of which he named Charles, Walcott, Louis, Savold, and Maxim were on the whole much more skilled than the heavyweights of the Dempsey era.

My own view would be that an era with Charles, Walcott, Marciano, Henry, Baker, LaStarza, Layne, and an old and faded but still worthy Joe Louis, plus Moore, Johnson, Matthews, Satterfield, and Maxim in the lightheavies, was certainly worthy of comparision with any earlier era. The problem with comparisions with later eras is the explosion in size which began in the sixties and seventies and went through the roof around the end of the century.

 

Good stuff Old Fogster. Even in the 1970s though, you still had smallish 6'0 200lb contenders like patterson, ellis, quarry, even shavers. It wasnt unti late 70s-early 1980s where the tubbs, witherspoons, thomas, dokes came along that the heavyweight picture transistioned to 6'3 + 210lb + heavyweights

 

I agree with most of what you stated BUT Rocky never met an opponent that hit nearly as hard as Foreman. Again, if Rocky fought the same fighters as Frazier did, I really don't think he would have done any better then Frazier did.

As far as who had the better chin, again, Rocky never fought anyone in their prime that had the punching power of Big George. If Rocky fought Ali 3 times and Foreman 2 times, I can not see him winning any of them, BUT that's just my opinion.

I would also put Frazier's left hook against Rocky's right cross any day. Ted Lowry who I met several times, went the distance with Rocky twice. I asked him who was the best fighter he ever fought and he said it wasn't Rocky, it was Joey Maxim. He also told me that in the 2nd bout, he was a last minute sub.

Defensive skills, is close, either way is good with me, as both took a lot of punches.

 

As you and I both know, Kearns and Dempsey had a falling out and he managed both Maxim and Moore. He wanted to down grade Dempsey as much as possible.

With that saying, even though I feel Rocky's era was weak, Dempsey's era was just as weak if not weaker, in my opinion. BUT were not talking about the 20's, or 30's, were talking about Frazier's era, which I believe was better then Marciano's. If you just take the names of Louis, Charles, Walcott and Marciano you would have to say that it was outstanding, BUT the first 3 seen better days.

 

rocky was never floored twice and hurt badly by an oscar bonavena(frazier was one knockdown away from suffering a TKO loss). nor was rocky floored by a clubfighter like michael bruce. Frazier was also staggered in many other fights.

Thats fine, but I would pick rockys left hook over fraziers right hand by a mile. rocky had knockout power in his left hook, frazier had no power in his right hand. rockys two fisted power against fraziers one, is a huge advantage here.

So are you claiming Charles, Walcott were not oustanding fighters when they fought marciano? if not, what on film draws you to this conclusion based on the footage?

 

"Rocky never fought an opponent who hit as hard as Foreman"

But Frazier DID NOT stand up to Foreman's punch, so what does this prove in comparing Frazier to Marciano. This is like arguing that Joe Louis punched harder than anyone that Jack Dempsey faced, so therefore Max Baer beats Dempsey. I just think it is illogical.

As I said in another thread, Lowry is also saying then that Maxim was better than Moore, but I KNOW that isn't true. I think we should also remember that Lowry fought a greenish Marciano.

By the way, I remember a RING article in which Toxie Hall, a Marciano sparring partner and also a friend of his, said he was certain Moore would beat Marciano before the two of them actually fought.

 

Oscar had a very good punch, 44 KO's in his 56 wins. Anyone can get caught. Rocky was also hurt several times during the early put of his career.

That's your opinion and that's find. I saw Frazier many times and his right wasn't that bad especially when he was on the inside. His left was so good that he have to use his right as the KO punch.

No, all I am saying is that they took a lot of punishment over the years and they were both on the way down from where they once was. Just about every boxing historian I have talked to, agrees with that.

 

"Quarry was not an easy night for anyone."

Quarry lost very badly to Frazier twice, Ali twice, and Norton.

 

I don't understand what trying to say. I am saying that Rocky never fought anyone near Foreman's punching power. Frazier was beaten by only 2 men and I can't see Rocky beating either one of them. Foreman would outweigh Rocky by approx. 35 pounds, I just can't see it.

 

YES, all Hall of Famers and much bigger and stronger then Walcott, Charles, etc.