Hector Camacho .Vs. Pernel Whitaker @ 135.

Welcome to Eastside Boxing forum Borincano. I am known as Redrooster. Some of my favorites are Roy Jones, Terry Norris, Hector Camacho, and the great Galindez.

John blames me for much on ESB. Leonard is okay fighter. i just said his chin wasnt perfect and couple people here soiled their panties after seeing it.

When it comes to badmouthing fighters, John is the worst. He actually badmouths Hagler but spends his most of the time belittling Camacho, calling him a spineless chicken. That is his postion on Camacho. John is not from New York so his opinion may be based on other's opinions.

John missed out on Camacho's tv debut, a sensational victory over Louie Loy. He had championship material written all over him and no one could stand up to his blinding speed.

John once told me that Roger Mayweather was superior to Hector at 130 and foolishly expected me to go along with him until I pointed out the error of his ways.

John gets real quiet after I publically school him on ESB. Then to cheer him up, his friends suddenly will show to tell him how well he's doing. Some even even go the extra mile and tell him he's schooling me.

I've nothing against Whitaker. He's a fine fighter, a durable fighter, a skilled technician but I believe his style was patterend after Hector's successful style.

I believe this because I watched Hector progress thru the ranks before Pernell became pro (not the opposite process as with most ESB posters who are just now discovering the true prowess of Camacho)

So in effect, I studied the both of them in logical order while the ESB posters try doing it in reverse order. And on top of that, dont have most of the footage that I have of him (there is very little footage of Hector on youtube)

look at the two of them and you will see how he patterened his style after Hector's. he even delivers body blows the way Hector did. But Hector delivered his more much faster and effectively and was the more damaging puncher. Hector was the master.

Hector seemed to have quieted down after the Rosario fight even tho I felt he comfortably won it. But by mid 1987 at the new weight of 140 pounds, he seemed to still had a good deal left and was definitely on top of his game!

Once again, he showed exactly how he fares against other fast boxers like Howard Davis. Even then, no fighter could touch him. Howard who had recently held Taylor to a draw, was completely outclassed and embarrassed by Hector. The defense, the jab, the body work were too much for the 1976 gold medalist to overcome.

Camacho was so fast that Davis, a speedster himself, could do nothing more than stand around and allow Macho to score upon every square inch of his body while Hector himself remained untouched (hitting Hector was impossible in those days)

He showed why he was head and shoulders above everyone else in the 130, 135, 140 pound divisions.

last thing. Scientist and I were discussing the 1985 sparring session between Pernell and Hector. I can't find the magazine I read it from and may no longer have it (I havent finished looking).....but it described the event in which hector administered a beating to Pernell. A beating so convincing that the corner had to intervne and stop the carnage so as to save Pernell from permanent physical and psychological damage. I clearly remember reading it at least once. There seems to be no account of it on the internet and no other posters from Cyberboxing forum know of it. I cant believe that I am the only one out there who has read it.

Scientist on the other hand recalls a 1983 session in which Pernell handed Hector his ass. I remember no such reference from the 1985 article I read and have a hard time believing such a story. It's not that I dont believe Scientist (he gave the link wich I read myself). What I dont believe is the author's account.

To satisfy the other readers, I was wondering if you might have read or known about the two in sparring together.

 

Never heard of any of the two. If in fact it could be found, I would love to watch or read. HBO would have brought it up back in the day if it actually happened. I don't see how it could have happened due to their different promoters. Not calling you a liar, but finding it and posting it will earn you much respect among the knowledgable posters. Good luck. Can you share the link that Scientist gave you?

 

This other poster at Cyber did mention he read about it but his account is different

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although I recall from that snipett that Hector roughed him up and Pernell's mgmt. stopped it.

This is SS and the link

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Of the two I would have to say my story is more believable. Manny Steward's is not at all believable. In fact, I once read Mike McCallum openly calling Steward a liar. How is an amateur suffering from jet lag going to outclass a dominant fighter like Camacho who was just as clever but had twice the speed?

At 130???

Pernell didnt even know what speed was until he stepped in the ring with him. Even at 135, Hector was clearly his superior.

 

Sweet Pea > Hector Camacho regardless.

 

I know that's what a lot of people say but they never say specifically the reasons for it.

Whatever they might be, I dont believe many here have seen as much of Hector as I have, save for Duodenum

Many people dont realize this but his decline started somewhere around 1988. That is what i have deduced. I dont know how it happened but it probably came from some sort of lifestyle abuse.

I never actually saw him perform during that year but I remember watching a clip of him on the news when he was dropped early in the year by some non entity. He went on to win that fight on a decision and was successful in his other two bouts. I also missed his next few bouts in 1989. I was actually no longer interested in him as a fighter.

then someone told me about the mancini fight, telling me Ray won but didnt get the decision. I thought yeah right. But he sounded so convinced that I ordered the fight even tho I had no real interest in Hector at the time. But out of curiosity I wasted my money and ordered it so I could see it for myself and sure enough, Ray did win but didnt get the decision.

I thought Hector came down further than I thought. He still had some speed but he was now impotent. He looked just as impotent vs Baltazar, who gave him way too much respect.

Not more than a year later, he lost to Greg Haugen (with the help of several point deductions)

For a fighter like Camacho to lose to a fighter such as Haugen is a solid indicator of great decline. Losing to a fighter he once could have destroyed a thousand times in a thousand ways even with the help of the officials.

after that the losses kept mounting to fighters he once could have beat with no problem. He would go on to lose to Chavez and Trinidad.

About the only fair fight he had in recent years were the Duran and Leonard fights.

I remember hector remarking in a magazine regarding leonard at the weigh in:

"look how round and how soft his body looks"

Sad that Ray came out for no reason just to humiliate himself and let his fans down. Not only that, but they actually had to pay to see it! atsch

Now regarding Pernell. I thought some of his best work was that trophy fight against Chavez. it displayed some of the most clever moves I have seen since the days of Camacho-Davis. It was certainly up there with leonard-hagler. Not quite Douglas-Tyson or Hagler-Hamsho 1 but is still worth reviewing it. Duva and Benton were simply the best team out there. I think Pernell was much better prepared for Chavez' style than Chavez was for Pernell's.

 

Red,

You dont have to convince me how good a fighter Camacho was...you just will have a hard time convincing me that he is good as you think he is.

Pernell was just better...he looked better, he achieved more against better fighters. Thats all there really is to it.

 

What fights have you seen him in @ 130?

 

Hector?

Um..Loy, Sato, Coverson, Limon and Solis I have in my collection.

Technically only two of those are at 130 though.

I think Ive seen him against Melvin Paul aswell..If Melvin is black and american. It was missing rounds 9 and 10 though. Again though not at 130 technically.

 

That poster at Cyberboxingzone pretty much has every single boxing magazine from the 80's (he has every issue of World Boxing, Boxing, KO Mag, The Ring, Boxing Illustrated from the time) and if he hasn't heard of it, it's unlikely to exist. I think the most likely explanation is that you confused the Whitaker-Camacho sparring story for the Camacho-Paul sessions.

Regarding how could Whitaker have whipped Camacho when he was still an amateur, well, Whitaker had over 200 amateur fights, which are all 3 or 4 round affairs, so sparring Hector for as many rounds wouldn't have been a problem. As for Pernell not being able to deal with the speed, Whitaker was taking on the best Cubans in the amateurs who were all speed merchants, and he handled them with aplomb. He beat down the great Angel Herrera, a guy that was a two time Olympic gold medalist and probably would have medalled again at the 84 games if Cuba didn't boycott.

As I've said on a few occasions in this thread already, look how Whitaker neutralised a speedy prime DLH when he was on the way out with his tricky defense. he had Oscar fanning the whole Thomas & Mack arena, as our good friend Jack Prescott has said .

Whitaker could handle speed. It's one thing to flurry, it's another thing to flurry on a moving target. Probably the reason he got the better of Meldrick Taylor in sparring as well.

 

With Camacho, it was just not speed, it was the whole package. Meldrick and these cubans are much different speedy fighters. Camacho's speed, agility, southpaw stance/which he really is a right hander, ring generalship.....you know what, it would have been a hell of a fight period. I know they were calling each other out I believe during the fastest hands of the west card. It never happened possibly due to promoters getting in the way. A good fight that the fans were robbed of. Whitaker has accomplish more and beat Chavez in my eyes. His style was not very pleasing, but he is an ATG hands down. Camacho should of, could of, but still accomplished winning 130, 135, and 140 titles before losing to Chavez. Haugen does not count due to the bull**** call and the ref having it in for Camacho. What ever happened to Padilla?

 

Camacho was clearly very talented, no one disputes that, but these are the facts:

- His best win was a one sided showing against Jose Luis Ramirez
- He got beaten in one sided sided fashion when he faced great fighters when he himself was on the slide
- He had HELL with Rosario
- He had HELL with a past his best Mancini
- He had HELL with Haugen
- He RAN from Boza Edwards who was outside his best weight and years
- He faced a lot of nobodies at 130 in his so called prime that even a Zab Judah 130 pound equivalent would dominate and lead everyone to think he was Pernell Whitaker with power


His struggles with good but no where near great fighters, together with his not showing any resistance against greats when he was declining must surely place some doubt in the mind of the sane viewer that thinks Camacho was clearly a great fighter capable of beating the greats in his prime.

 

He didn't have hell with Haugan the second time around and as tough as the Mancini fight was I thought he still won.

 

the Jimmy Paul session was separate and besides, check what Mr H kins said-that he recalled a snippet of the session. That means he remembers seeing it as well. His recollection of it was different but it only backs me up-that the article is out there.

and it was stopped-the article states it. and it was because of what Hector was doing to him; the article makes that clear-that's the point of the article, why they put that article out there!

as for Pernell getting the better of Meldrick, that's when you're putting the question to Pernell. Maybe Taylor has a different recollection of it. :yep

YOu dont hear much from Meldrick nowadays.

also, beating some amateurs is one thing. I've seen fast amateurs but usually, fighters dont fully develop into this elite class of speedster until years into the professional ranks. Not even Roy Jones, Hector Camacho, Thomas Hearns until several years after turning pro.

Ray Leonard was one of the exceptions but how many Sugar Ray's come along in the amateurs?

I know the popular thing here on ESB is to say Hector was fast but he didnt have the skills to go along with it; that they are strictly second rate. I seen it. This is the prevailing viewpoint that was summed up by Achillesthegreat a couple days ago when he said Hector had the speed but lacked the skill.

he even said that Pernell was the one with the jab. I suppose that means Camacho didnt use one himself or that his would be of no relevence.

That just shows the depths of ignorance coming from some of the leading ESB posters-coming from people who never actually saw him. I wonder what Achilles would have to say after viewing the loy and Coverson fights

It's true that Hector did have enormous speed but that speed only complimented his style. The speed coupled with the pinpoint precision formed an unholy alliance against the opponent so that when he opened up, that opponent went down in the blink of an eye. This was usually done with blinding combinations too fast for the eye to follow as in the Loy fight, as in the Coverson fight. That's why i love Hector Camacho!

Even at 135, he retained some of this speed. he could easily have destroyed Boza Edwards if he chose to. The KD was just a sample of what he could really do when the mood suited him. So surely no amateur could hope to match the speed of Camacho, who name was once recognized as being synonmous with the word speed.

But Hector was about so much more than just beating opponents to the punch and putting them on their asses. He set the bar stylistically for future lightweights with a blueprint for success the Duvas surely took and implemented for their own gifted fighter. Pernell was a worthy protege.

 

Well, do let us know when the article turns up so we can verify it Red. How is the the search going by the way?

I actually got Hawkins to photocopy about 20 Pernell Whitaker related articles for me from the said mags, which I have with me. Nothing there alludes to it, but I'll be glad to get Hawk to supply me with the edition if you can narrow it down:good

That's true. Kinda like you hear Camacho saying he beat the **** out of Paul, and Paul saying he heard a grunt and a grumble every time he went to Hector's midsection. Always two sides to a story.

Even if we accept that as true, the Cubans don't usually turn pro, so they tune themselves to being quick over short distances and develop as such in their maturity. Herrera was no 17 or 18 year old when Pea was schooling him.

Hector had skills, but no one is going to brand him a great for brandishing those skills against the Loy's and Coverson's of the world. Likewise, no one is going to say Zab Judah is a great for schooling Reggie Green and Junior Witter.

Well, Hector was in the mood to avoid all exchanges with Boza from about the third round on and put up a rather stinky effort in the end.

I'm sure they got quite an insight from watching Hector. Would have told Pea to get an inside fight game unless you wanted Chavez swamping your ass. That sorta thing :good