HW TOP 10 h2h and achievement

H2H
1. lewis
2 Ali\holmes
3 Tyson
4 Holyfield
5 klitschko w\v
6 forman
7 Bowe
9 Fraizer
10 Norton maybe
But only Atf or the ones who is going to be(or not). Coz i would razer add Tua, Bruno than Ffraizer and Norton due to a size and styles they where fighting.

 

Holmes for me IS the best H2H fighter ever, followed closely (in no order) Tyson (Prime) Foreman (young version) Ali (any version up to 3rd Frazier fight)

 

I think your top 3 choices are a bit strange. Holmes lost to the best fighters he faced (Spinks, Tyson, Holyfield), and even though he was quite a bit past his prime on all occassions he wasn't really dominant against his best opponents even in his prime. Norton, Shavers and Witherspoon all gave him trouble.

Foreman have the perhaps most dominant perfomance against an ATG, but he obviously had a lot of trouble with skillful boxers. He met two world class defensive boxers and lost clearly to both. Not a good stat.

When it comes to Tyson it's harder to say. He annihilated a loot of good fighters, but lost to the best he faced. I'll give him a pass for the loss to Lewis, but not for the ones against Holyfield. He was past his prime, but not by that much and Holyfield was older than him.

I think Ali, Lewis and Louis must rank higher h2h.

Ali for me is nr. 1 and the case for that is quite strong I believe. He beat 3 extremely dangerous opponents in Liston, Frazier and Foreman. He showed that he could overcome just about any style, and he was probably more adaptable during a fight than any other HW champion. Add his amazing physical abilities, his toughness and will to win to this and you have a great fighter.

Lewis, when on song, looked nigh invincible. He could be distracted, but when he brought his A-game he was a class above his opponents. Because of his two KO losses his chin is always going to be in question, though. Especially when matched against the likes of prime Tyson, Louis, Liston and Fooreman.

Louis also beat every type, shape and form of fighter. The problem here is his obvious vulnerability against quick, tecnical fighters (Schmeling, Farr, Pastor, Conn and Walcott) and his self-admitted vulnerability against swarmers. But one should also note that he was a killer in rematches. In a series against him it's hard to see anyone not picking up a loss.

 

Lewis would be #2 H2H behind Ali.

Tyson is way too high in both categories.

 

Good post; Although there can be cases made that Ali lost to Norton and was also very hurt by Henry Cooper....basically with the HW's all of them have their own attributes, I just went by them on their best nights, i.e Foreman when he beat Frazier, Tyson for those couple of years, and as I said, Ali over a much bigger timescale.

Holmes for me, with his brilliant jab, chin, recovery, constant power (if not exactly on the Tyson-Foreman level) fantastic movement and tactics....I would've chose Ali but personally, I've always had a hunch that on his best day, Holmes would beat the best version of Ali, regardless of what actually happened when they fought (That was NOT Ali)

He was indeed stopped by Prime Tyson but he was never stopped again and I believe he carried on fighting until about 1994/1995 (can't be bothered to check at the moment) That not only shows how tough Holmes was, but just how good Tyson was in his day, although Holmes had been inactive.

Again, it's very debatable either way, Lennox Lewis is up their, but as you pointed out he could be hurt. Again, there are excused either way (i.e the high altitude in the first Rahman fight)

It's debatable either way. Which is why we're here :good

 

Ok. Let's look at the facts.

Number of top contenders that Holmes easily beat: Mercer (even though he clearly beat for example Shavers and Cooney, they did have their moments).
Number of top 15 HW ATGs he beat: None (if one doesn't count a shot Ali)

Number of top contenders Ali easily beat: Moore (he was ancient but still a top contender), Terrell, Folley (old but still top contender), Quarry, Ellis and Bugner (he was in the rankings long enough for me to call him top contender, but I can see why some would disagree).
Number of top 15 HW ATGs he beat: Liston (easily), Foreman (clearly), Patterson (easily and Frazier (not so easily)

Now, this is close to resume actually, but it gives a clue as to how they would do against other ATGs. We can also use Norton as a reference. At 34 he almost gave a prime Holmes as much trouble as he gave a post-prime Ali when he was 29.

 

Ali lost to Holmes and Berbick too.

 

Yeah, but there wasn't such a clear line between the opponents that gave him trouble. When he was still remotely close to his prime there were three opponents that really troubled him: Jones, Frazier and Norton (I don't count Cooper, since the only big moment he had in almost 11 rounds with Ali was when Ali's concentration slipped for a second) and they aren't that similar stylistically.

Foreman was probably as good in Zaire as ever was, he just met an opponent he couldn't figure out.

I agree that Holmes on film looks like he would be nightmare for most. It's just that he didn't look that convincing against top level opposition.

And he was badly hurt by the right enough times to really question his chances against Louis, Tyson and Lewis. Of course this can also be said of Ali and the left hook. But Ali fought one of the very best left hooker in the biz, and came out on top 2 times out of 3 when past his prime. The best right that Holmes faced (Tyson's) took him out.

 

Come on! I stated that Holmes was past his prime on all three occassions (which you nicely enough omitted from your quote), but he wasn't shot like Ali was against Holmes and Berbick. And Berbick wasn't one of Ali's 3 best opponents.

 

Sure, but it's hard to ignore when speculating how they would do against other greats.