HW TOP 10 h2h and achievement

Not even Teddy Atlas Would counsel his fighters towards recklessness.

And since you're smarter than Teddy, I'll take it that's tongue in cheek.:yep

 

I couldn't imagine.


I was looking at your statement:

and trying to determine what to make of it, when it occurred to me that you intended it to mean something other than what it actually says.

Or am I missing your point here?

 

This is moving away in some new direction.

We were all done at this point.



In response to

you came back with

confirming that much of our difference stemmed from a difference in our understanding of the term HEART.



But then you tossed out:

which seems to open a new can of....something!


Again, unless I'm missing some connection, I'd prefer to leave the distinction between the responsibilities of the fighter and his cornerman as the focus of some future excitiement on here.

I believe that HEART and its intended meaning were at the crux of our exchange.

And that crux has been resolved.

 

BTW, do you have an alltime top ten heavywt list ?

Using a blend of H2H and achievement, I rank them

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Lewis / Foreman

5. Marciano / Holmes

7. Liston
8. Tyson
9. Frazier
10. Patterson

(Going back to the Joe Louis era only).

 

No sarcasm intended anywhere so far in this thread on my part.

Not that I don't resort to it from time to time, but not today.

Again, a communication problem.

When you posted

"Recklessness wins fights all the time"
a statement that, if taken literally, is patently false, I was at a loss as to where you were going.

From your example above and from re-reading the last piece of the thread, it is apparent that your use of "all the time" is intended to mean SOME of the time or OCCASSIONALLY, or something short of 'in every single instance.'

But here again, while recklessness DOES undoubtedly win some fights, my guess is that, in general, it would cause a fighter to lose, more times than it would lat him win.

(I would say the same thing about recklessness in any other endeavour as well. It wouldn't be my first avenue. Even though I've often behaved recklessly in many different ways.)

And , IMO, Hagler would probably have prevailed over Tommy even if he'd NOT been reckless. It would just have taken him a bit longer.

What I meant by resolving the crux was that we each realized that the other was using the term heart in a different sense.

 

Reasonable similarities.

If we take out Wills and Johnson (my list only went back to the 30s) the remaining eight are on mine ?

You don't have Foreman ?

(Some do, some don't).

 

I understand the part about trainers and their economy with the truth.

When I wrote :"I can't imagine" I meant that I didn't see where that line of questioning was going relative to our discussion.

Again, what I'm saying is that when I first read your statement:

"Recklessness wins fights all the time" I read it literally.

If you meant (literally) that if one is reckless, they will win every fight, then I don't believe we have to go far to see the falsity of the statement.

The example of vitali doesn't prove an ALL-THE-TIME PROPOSITION.

All that's needed to disprove it is one counter-example. And you have provided it in Hearns Hagler. Hearns was reckless and he didn't win.


The sense I believe you meant it was 'lots of times' or "it's not uncommon", rather than 'every single time.'

 

So Foreman is in there, just down a bit.

I realize that there's a fair degree of arbitrariness and subjectivity in these kinds of compilations, but how do you draw comparisons between guys so far removed from each other in era as Sam Langford and Wlad ?

I know that there are the records to be consulted, but I have difficulty going back past Louis largely because of the dearth of decent footage, the reliance on reporters of the day's accounts, the differences in the rules and the enforcement of the rules, etc.

My own era of following the sport live began in the mid sixties, and I have a hard time getting a good sense of the relative merits of guys between Louis and Ali, as they were always part of history for me.

But at least I could watch them on old tapes.

I gave up trying to make judgments about the first three decades of the last century.

Senya13 on the classic forum takes the whole subject very seriously.

And I always marvel!