The best super heavies. Can they be outboxed?

Even though this was not adressed to me I suggest you watch the fight. Yes, Lyle was slightly ahead but was in no way outboxing Ali. He simply won the rounds where Ali did nothing, and by that I mean nothing. Such rounds aren't hard to win. To Lyle's credit he didn't get suckered into a rope-a-dope as Ali wanted, but he didn't do any damage either. Just scored enough (mostly mith bodyshots, not jabs) to win the rounds.

But when Ali opened up he got to Lyle just about every time, as showed especially in round 8 when he had Lyle in trouble. This was also the round he had pedicted he would KO Lyle. So he was obviously being "outboxed" so badly that he didn't come very far from making his prediction come true. Not bad. Ali won nearly every round where he actually threw punches.

I'll grant you Jones and Norton as guys that really puzzled and troubled Ali while he was not very far from his prime version, but I just don't think Lyle fit the bill in the same way. And he ceratinly didn't dominate Ali with his jab. In fact, Ali slipped that jab and countered it enough that you could claim it was more a liability than an asset. Foster, for example, had far more success with his jab than Lyle had.

 

This is a good point. Well put.

But boxing is a funny old game. Just when you think something or someone is unbeatable, along comes someone else to prove it isn't, usually spectacularly.

But at the moment the big superheavyweights hold the aces. We'll see how long this lasts...

 

This last paragraph is a very good point.

By the way, do you think either Lewis or Vitali when they were older were in against a boxer as skilled as Norton or Young. I do not think Peter or Gomez fit that bill.

I agree, though, that 6' 8" and skilled is very tough to beat.

I do think there is not much doubt an old Vitali defeats an old Ali. A young Ali is a different kettle of fish.

 

Well, we just disagree about this fight I supposse. I think it would be hard on Ali not to give him rds 5, 6 and 8 of the first eight. Round 7 was close, but I have no problem giving that to Lyle.

The reason why Ali did so little in many rounds was down to his own tactics IMO, not Lyle. He probably saw similarities between Lyle and Foreman and thought he could beat Lyle the same way. But when he opened up there was no hesitation and he soon started time him with his right. The reason why Lyle lost was because he was too vulnerable to Ali's right. Once Ali had "calibrated" it on Lyle he landed it nearly at will.

I don't believe this to be true. Bugner, whom he met in the next fight, was of a simliar size as Lyle, but had better reach, jab and defensive skills, and Ali moved and boxed him. He was more agressive than usual, but he relied on his boxing skills.

In general Ali had a pretty easy time with the bigger guys.

Agreed.

 

While Bowe had more skills than Carnera or Willard, he still got hit too much...watching him against Holyfield and Golota...forget size what would he do if he ran into Joe Louis's fast buzzsaw of a combo...Louis hit harder than Golota or Holy and IMO would chop Bowe down and out promptly as far as a decision...I think a fighter with power but with a boxing plan and movement can outbox him...Walcott, Young, are some that should be able too

 

Lewis : If he choses to go for the dull points victory is nigh impossible to outbox or engage when he does not want you too to strong and to fluid for a big man to outbox

Wlad Klitchko : much the same though his natural timidity could give an opening to exploit for a faster skilled fighter

Vitali : can be outboxed fairly slow and stiff his size and punching power make him dangerous throughout the fight so you cant make any mistakes

Bowe : Fairly easy to outbox no defense + complete inablity to handle a jab. I would pick a lot of good smaller HWS to outbox him Holyfield was dumb and to brave for his own good against Bowe. Had Holyfield chosen to box like he did in the second fight he would not have lost the first fight.

 

Everything that I had to say has pretty much been touched on by Bokaj ... Ali had trouble with Jones, more so because Jones stepped forward with the jab, which caught Ali going back in a straight line, and NOT just because he jabbed well. One of the major differences between the Jones and Liston is that Ali was learning to not 'run' as much, which made him conserve more energy as well as become more efficient with his defensive methods, such as pulling back in a straight line, but actually moving his head as well.

Mendoza, Ali made Liston look totally outclassed and I think it dishonest to suggest otherwise. The Liston that took Cleveland Williams' sledgehammers and gamely fought back, cowered into a protective foetal position when Ali opened up on him ... Liston knew he was outclassed, so did those at ringside, as did Ali, himself ... you could see the confidence once he got his vision back ... meh, 'tis but a moot point.

I don't think that Ali was near prime for Norton ... any fighter as reliant on reflexes and athleticism that misses 3 1/2 years of their prime years cannot be deemed to be in prime ring-ready condition ... physical prime, arguably, but as primed as one would be if they had a continual run of fighting at the top level? I find that hard to believe ... but yes, Norton would give Ali trouble at all stages, but not cause of the jab, but because of the gameplan implemented by Futch.

I've had enough ... I gave up when you stated that Lyle was outboxing Ali without qualifying it by saying that Lyle was winning the cards against a guy that was pissing about in the ring ... whenever Ali actually decided to do something, as Bokaj said, Lyle was vulnerable and 'twas only a matter of time ... premature stoppage? Yes, but Lyle took numerous unanswered blows ... he did himself no favours and gave the referee a choice to make.

Back to the thread, I do like Bowe ... I really do, but I don't immediately think of the guy as an ATG. In fact, I find him highly overrated by some ... the guy was damn hittable and I'd put money on him getting beat decisively by a number of ATGs ... I think he was just too hittable and his lack of disciple is an intangiable that I cannot overlook.

 

What is the definition of a super heavy. It is worth noting that Tyson outboxed all of the superheavys of his era, and i doubt he qualifies as a super heavy. Spinks outboxed the skilled super heavy in Cooney quite comprehensively. The reason Vitali, Vlad, and Lewis cant be outboxed is not that they are super heavyies, it is because they dont have any decent non super heavy challengers anymore or certainly they dont have any who are at their own level. By the way, is Brewster a super heavy, because he sure outboxed Vlad the first time as well. Is Golota a superheavy, because he sure lost a few rounds to chris byrd. I can see your point, but it really comes back to the class of the individual fighter not their size. Prime Tyson rarely was outboxed because he was that much better than others. Size is largely irrelevant (although that may be part of the reason why they are so good).

 

Ali would not seldom give rounds away in what could be looked upon as either tactics or clowning - or a bit of both. Look at the first 4 rds in the rematch against Patterson for example.

 

Might part of the problem be that the level of technique at heavyweight is generaly less than in the lower weight classes?

Perhaps the shorter heavyweights for this reason are failing to do what shorter fighters at lowere weights are doing and have been doing since the begining of time.