Foreman vs Walcott

Bummydavis.

"Louis and Marciano landed on him but it took both of them late in the fight to stop JJW....the young version of Foreman did not have that kind of stamina."

YES. We all know a young George did not have the stamina, (after the Ali fight). But JJW ain't outboxing George like he did Rocky for 13 rounds, George will try to overpower Jersey Joe, at times JJW even had success going toe to toe with Rocky which would be murder if he tried that with Foreman.

Say what you will, but JJW was never seen as the unstoppable force that Foreman was, if George never fought Ali, could you see him later losing to Young? In the 1950's everybody knew JJW was ready to be taken at 38 years old.

Louis was past prime but still KO'd Walcott in the rematch. Louis was a better boxer than Foreman and greater but not more powerful.

Would schmeling beat a 1973-1974 Foreman? I think a peak Schmeling would have a better chance of beating Jersey Joe Walcott.

Because Marciano landed lots on Walcott and KO'd him late doesn't not really mean anything in a fight with George. George would KO Walcott, stop using the Young fight all the time, that was a post-Ali Foreman who imediately retired after the bout for ten years. I can use all of Walcott's 18 losses in 72 bouts as a basis on why he does not beat Foreman if you want.

As i have already said, the Louis that JJW outboxed (and who knocked him out in the return) was a shadow of the pre-WWII version. Walcott beat Charles when Ezzard was on the decline (Charles had already beaten him twice, he never had to fight JJW again but did.) Walcott has been KO'd on six occassions and downed numerous times, including by Charles, who was 35 pounds lighter than a 1973-1974 Foreman.

Yes, Walcott hit harder than Young or Ali, but he does not have their chins, which is what you need to beat Foreman.

Foreman hit harder than Marciano, Foreman destroyed bigger men. If George fought in the 1950's he would have more one punch KOs. George is one of the strongest ever Heavyweights, with one of the hardest jabs and chins in the business despite never being the complete article, he was still work-in-progress when outfoxed by Ali.

 

1. As Louis' exhibition schedule prior to the first Walcott fight has come up, it is listed in the 1976 Ring Record Book.

Louis fought 17 exhibitions between the Mauriello and Walcott fights, 14 in 1947. Opponents included Perk Daniels, Arturo Godoy (2), Walter Hafer (5), Rusty Payne, and Tiger Jack Fox. Most of the fights were for three or four rounds, but he fought a six round exhibition with Godoy in Santiago, Chile, and a ten round exhibition with Godoy in Mexico City.

How sharp these exhibitions would keep Louis is debatable, but he was not exactly laying off.

2. Walcott's chin might be somewhat better than judged here. In his second career as a top contender and champion, Walcott was stopped only by Louis who unleashed as impressive a combination as he or perhaps anyone else ever threw, and Marciano, who caught him with as good a punch as has been caught on film. The three early knockouts came when Walcott was not training full time and perhaps not even eating regularly. Dempsey, as another example, is usually thought of as having a sturdy chin, but he was bounced off the floor plenty in his early years when he was coming up and did not have the benefit of good training. The same is true of Johnson. None of these men were easy to Ko once they reached the top.

 

Foreman beat bigger men...big deal, he could not put some of the smaller men on the canvas or keep them there and Foreman fought a lot of bums.....but these are some of the smaller guys under 6 foot or under 200 lbs Peralta 2 times,Qwawi,Everit Martin, and Levi Forte and Forte was KO'd 16 times, so I dont want to hear that fighters with slick skills and ring experience could not beat him and Foreman never fought a strong heavy with the boxing skills of Walcott....Foremans big Ko wins were over Norton,Frazier,Lyle and Moorer, different style fighters than Walcott

 

Qawi?

Bummydavis.

Why are you bringing up Qawi into the argument? That was an old George not prime (and still won). I believe a prime Foreman would have beaten every fighter the old George lost to including Holyfield despite being a better paced guy in his 40's.

I am talking about a 1973-1974 Foreman. Do not bring up any fight for George post Ali into this debate. DO YOU WANT ME TO USE WALCOTT'S 18 LOSSES IN 72 BOUTS? Remember, JJW never beat Rocky and took five bites at the cherry to become World Champ (like Bruno).

George's wins over Chuvalo, Norton, Frazier, Lyle and Moorer (at 45) are probably better than any win on the Heavyweight resume of Walcott. All those guys weighed over 210 pounds (not just saying weight is a factor, but those guys would dominate the 50's) and Norton and Frazier wins were in 1973-1974 (best time to judge George).

Walcott ain't beating the Foreman who beat Norton. Walcott's best performance was a loss (v Marciano). I like JJW, he is a ATG and apart of history, but he loses to Foreman.

"Foreman never fought a strong heavy with the boxing skills of Walcott."

Foreman fought Ali who beat him in Africa. Ali is bigger and stronger than JJW with a better chin and a greater fighter overall in history, and Ali at 32 was better than Walcott at 38 (did Walcott's skills help him WIN in Louis II and Marciano I and II? No he was KO'd in all three fights). Just because JJW looked great against a rudimentry skilled Marciano who is way smaller than Foreman, doesn't mean he would beat Jack Dempsey, Mike Tyson or Evander Holyfield.

Who has Walcott beaten that compares to Foreman? In power, strength and pure brutality? Walcott did not have a great chin, Foreman has a better chin, power and never coasted fights like Walcott did v LOUIS (both fights). Walcott has better stamina but he is not as durable as george (who was KO'd just once).

.

 

I would say Joe Louis. Louis 6'2 213lb and appeared to me considerably more skilled than foreman, better jab, better puncher, faster hands, etc. Not to mention Walcott beat huge punchers and very good fighters like Elmer violent Ray and Lee Q Murray who are comparable to foreman in height and power. rated contenders Tommy Gomez and Hatchetman Sheppard are other aggresive foreman like punchers walcott knocked out.


Now on the flipside, who has foreman beat that fought like walcott? the closest one, jimmy young, easily outboxed foreman.

 

The thing about Walcott is that he can't make any mistakes through the course of the first seven or eight rounds, against a fighter who, for all his flaws, still threw a wonderful jab that would connect at least some of the time against JJW, and, Peralta fight notwithstanding, was generally quite capable of cutting off the ring. Foreman's landing something on any fighter he faces, and chances are, it's going to have an impact.

Walcott was very slick, had good power, and would be absolute hell for anyone to face, including Foreman. But he's fighting in retreat, probably looking to land one or two punches at a time, and then getting the hell out before too much damage can be done in return.

And that means that he's probably not going to wear Foreman down in the same fashion that Ali did in 74.

Something tells me that this would be a come-from behind victory, but I think Foreman finds Walcott some time in the 8th with something big and doesn't let him off the hook once that happens.

Foreman KO8

 

Suzieq.

"I would say Joe Louis. Louis 6'2 213lb and appeared to me considerably more skilled than foreman, better jab, better puncher, faster hands, etc."

"jimmy young, easily outboxed foreman. "

"Not to mention Walcott beat huge punchers and very good fighters like Elmer violent Ray and Lee Q Murray who are comparable to foreman in height and power. "

None of those guys above were Foreman and would never be World champs in any era. Even today.

You are not using a 1973-1974 Foreman. And the Joe Louis that Walcott fought was not comparable to Foreman. Joe Louis was past his prime and still KO'd JJW in the return. That version of Joe Louis loses to Ali in my opinion and Frazier.

Foreman was not the same fighter after losing to Ali, how many fights did he have after that bout?

Plus Walcott lost to many lesser fighters than Foreman in his prime.

 

Foreman was not the same because Ali layed out the blueprint how to beat him. and took away the image of invincibility, like Douglas did with tyson.I dont think Walcott would rope-a dope but he would give foreman movement and remember Walcott hit harder than Ali and Young so he would gain big Georges respect. Foreman avoided a lot of the punchers prior to the comeback only Frazier. If you want to consider Lyle a puncher fine but Lyle did not have the pinpoint one punch power of Walcott and he had Foreman seriously hurt, down 2 times and rocked many times. Remember Foreman prior to his comeback of 10 yrs. only KO'd 2 men past the 5th rd. Peralta and it was a stop on the ropes and Scrapiron Johnson in 7...most of Foremans record was really padded. His Ko of Norton was impressive but it was not something that was not done before or after. Fact is there were more ways than a rope a dope to beat Foreman. Is it a slam dunk, NO but if anyone had the style to upset big George it was JJW

 

Fantastic post.

 

Bummydavis.

"If you want to consider Lyle a puncher fine but Lyle did not have the pinpoint one punch power of Walcott and he had Foreman seriously hurt, down 2 times and rocked many times."

Stop using a post Ali Foreman. He was rusty after 16 months out.

Yes i believe Lyle hit harder than Walcott. Lyle did not have JJW speed and accuracy, but i believe he hit harder. Plus yet again. you are using a post Ali rusty Foreman who did not not fight for 16 months (remember George won).

Lyle was a huge guy (6'2" and above 220) that could even gave JJW a run for his money.

The punches Lyle landed on Foreman would KO Walcott if they landed. JJW would have to keep away from Lyle.

 

You seem to put such an emphasis on size and are underestimating Walcott and over estimating Lyles power but I think you are young and may be impressed by weight lifting muscles.

After his dominating loss to Jerry Quarry (who was 6" ft even and 200lbs for that fight) Lyle was 6"2 yes but Quarry was better

Lyles next 10 fights he went 9-0-1 but only scored 2 KO's

He won a dec over 17-23-0 who was 5"9 Bob Stallings ( Stallings was Ko'd 6 times before this fight

He W10 and over 6"ft 195lb Gragorio Peralta

He W10 over Lou Bailey who was 6" and 17-37-5 and was ko'd by Sonny Banks,Doug jones,Rodney Bobick,Earnie Shavers in 2 to name a few

He W10 over 5'10 1/2 205 lb Oscar bonavena

He fought a Draw with 6' 195lb Gregorio Peralta

He W10 over Jimmy Ellis who was 6'1 and 193lbs

so before you start telling me about how big a guy is and how large his biceps are lets just take a look at the men he could not KO 7 were 6 ft or under and a 200 lbs or under....none of them where in the class of Jersey Joe Walcott or could hit as hard as him ( possibly Quarry) the others were just trial horses and Lyle could not stop them. It tells you something about how a puncher may not be a puncher when he moves up in class....Good thing for Lyle he did not have to fight WALCOTT instead of this bunch and dont be so impressed with size over class

 

Good stuff Bummy