What if Futch had let Frazier go one more?

DUDE ALI WAS UP BY 4 PIONTS WHEN THE FIGHT WAS STOPPED......................FRAZIER WAS NOT GONNA KNOCK ALI OUT.....HIS EYE WAS REAL BAD.............EDDIE FUTCH IS A GENIUS AND THE BEST TRAINER OF ALL TYME........HE DID THE RIGHT THING...AND THE FIGHT WAS NOT CLOSE AT THAT POINT...:smoke:smoke:smoke

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJucwJRpb68

 

Good analysis.

You have to ask however , what hapens if Frazier has Dundee in his corner and Ali has Futch?

Dundee was not in Futch's class as a trainer.

As a cornerman he was the best.

If Ali had Futch in his corner the fight might have been stopped in Fraziers favour.

If Frazier had Dundee in his corner he would have said: "Just go out for one more round. I will throw the towel if I have to".

Ali would have quit and history would have changed.

 

I believe Frazier actually said to Futch "I want him boss" after which Futch famously said "It's all over. No one will forget what you did here today". :good

 

In the last couple of rounds Frazier was being caught cleanly with right hands and was backed up a couple of times ,if he had come out for the last round I think he would have been stopped.

 

That's a question I've pondered ever since as well.

There are varying accounts of both fighters conditions at the end of 14. Doubt if either really had 3 minutes left in the tank. Did the result really just come down to a game of bluff??

Dundee as a cornerman was of course the consumate pro and also the ultimate hustler when the occassion required (the extra time he bought Ali against Cooper just as an example).

 

Ali may of got the job done in the final round Frazier was that far gone, but either way Ali wins either by decision or TKO in the final round.

Ali said it was the closest he he had come to death, but that was out of respect for Frazier in a brilliant fight. If he had, had to, Ali would of fought one final round.

 

There have been varying stories and different arguments about what happened in Manilla, that are still being debated today.

One thing is for certain, Ali did ask for his gloves to be cut off saying, "cut these things off, I ain't going back out there, that's man's crazy." I've heard almost all the arguments with regards to the round which Ali apparently said these famous words.

Some on this forum are adamant that Ali said it as early as the seventh while some say he said it in the 14th round. Others strongly believe Ali said it clearly in the 11th round. From what I've read and heard from Dr. Ferdie Pacheco, former middleweight contender Willie "the Worm" Monroe who was sitting at ringside in Ali's corner and Angelo Dundee, was that Ali said it after the 14th round, just seconds after he punched himself out, ending the third round of his late rally. The traditional story says Ali won the first four rounds, Frazier won rounds 5 through 11, and Ali rallied in the last three rounds before Futch stopped the fight.

Some on this forum have also said Dr. Pacheco "changed" his story in subsequent tv interviews about Ali quitting in the 11th round to the 14th round, giving Frazier who was the loser of the fight, more respectability which is complete garbage.

I honestly don't know what's believable anymore but I do know logically from Ali's mannerisms and how he looked after the 14th round, that the famous "quit" words were likely said in the 14th. His head was down, slumping in his stool, shaking it back and forth in denial and the only person in the corner not paying attention was Dundee, who was preparing him for the last round. Bundini Brown kept pleading with Ali who kept denying and so did Pacheco, until halfway through the break. This is when Pacheco apparently looked over to Frazier's corner and saw Eddie signal to Carlos Padilla to stop the fight.

I don't think Frazier was in any better shape physically because his left eye was completely closed, but he did look to have slightly more energy than Ali. Futch had to literally sit Frazier down and tell him that he was stopping the fight. Frazier said he was ready to go out on his shield, but he'd never go against Eddie.

Who knows what would have happened if Frazier was allowed to continue. I don't believe Ali would have had enough to finish Frazier if the fight continued, based on his actions after the 14th round. Frazier might have had the drive and the strength to land one more good hook to Ali, possibly putting him down, but I think Ali would have done his best to stay away or clinch on tired legs, while Frazier dangerously takes a couple more weak shots to get close.

Manilla was a great, great fight, and it wasn't a blowout with Frazier badly behind on points like most people have said. Dave Smith and Red Anderson had Frazier slightly ahead based on the premise that Joe was always coming forward and making the fight. Ali always fought defensively against Frazier and that does count against him in the scoring, depending on which state of boxing rules form the criteria of the fight.

 

I find it interesting that Ali himself mentions Round ten as the time he was unsure he would win, the round when it was first claimed he said to cut off his gloves. Also at the end of 14 Ali sits and places his arms on the middles ropes and is still in that position when the camera cuts back to him after Futch stops the fight, i would expect if he was wanting them cut off then he would have turned them palm up and offered them to someone to cut the tape and laces off.
Its been claimed that Frazier tried to stand up and protest when Futch stopped the fight and Eddie had to push him back into his stool but as that footage shows nothing of the sort happened.
Great stoppage by Eddie.

 

Thank-you Mcgrain.

I'm not sure what you believe or what any one else on this forum believes, but kudos to you for mentioning Willie Monroe, who some didn't even know was a middleweight contender.

I've read the exact same quote from him. Hard to argue against the guy who was sitting right behind Ali's corner at ring side. He said he heard Ali clearly wanting his gloves cut off after the 14th round. Dr. Ferdie Pacheco said the same thing too in tv interviews.

I don't know where the alleged story changed from the 11th round to the 14th round, but after watching Ali throw everything he had left at Frazier in the last round before the fight was stopped makes him wanting to quit in the 14th round that much more believable.

I seriously doubt that Ali would have quit if Futch had let Frazier come out for the 14th. In fact, I think Ali would have stood up in his corner on tired legs and waved Frazier in with his glove like he did in the 11th round of the FOTC.

 

Eddie Futch said that he gently pushed Frazier's shoulder down as he was getting up in protest and told him that the fight was over.

"Sit down son, no one will ever forget what you did hear today."