HATTON or TSZYU who has the better LEGACY?

So hit me with some names then. I'm not saying that there haven't been any, just that in the scheme of things, as a world sport, there are not a large proportion of them. Same goes with Britain.

 

I don't really like putting a set number on it. If you limit it to a set number then if someone new comes along and has a better career, then are you saying to #100 "okay you're no longer an all time great"? Sounds harsh to me.

I simply associate all time greatness with doing something virtually unique in the sport (i.e. guys like the above who win 2/3 world titles and beat double figure world class opponents would be greats of their era but not all timers). Like Jones with his winning titles from middleweight to heavy without ever being challenged in his prime. Like B-Hop who is still beating the sh1t out of unbeaten p4p ranked guys in his mid-40s. Like Pac, who has won world titles from flyweight to lightweight and is now beating the up welterweights. Either that or completely destroying elite competition over a long period or time.

 

[quote="TKO";3764196]I don't really like putting a set number on it. If you limit it to a set number then if someone new comes along and has a better career, then are you saying to #100 "okay you're no longer an all time great"? Sounds harsh to me.

I simply associate all time greatness with doing something virtually unique in the sport (i.e. guys like the above who win 2/3 world titles and beat double figure world class opponents would be greats of their era but not all timers). Like Jones with his winning titles from middleweight to heavy without ever being challenged in his prime. Like B-Hop who is still beating the sh1t out of unbeaten p4p ranked guys in his mid-40s. Like Pac, who has won world titles from flyweight to lightweight and is now beating the up welterweights. Either that or completely destroying elite competition over a long period or time.[/quote]


i said before, tzsyu, tapia, toney and wright are ATGs for me in the very lowest bracket (115-130). 30 years form now i might consider the top 150 as ATG..i do not set that particular number, i just realized that i can name 130 fighters with i consider ATG...and the fighters in the 131-150 spot is forgettable..i put carbajal, hamed, casamayor and vitalai in those spots..

i understand your point...now i ask you for a borderline boxer you consider as ATG? name a boxer who you barely consider as ATG?

 

Somebody like Mayweather, Ricardo Lopez or Lennox Lewis. The former hasn't got as great a list of names as some of the other ATGs, but the way he has for the most part dominated them all (only Castillo, the much bigger DLH and to an extent Hatton and Judah have given him something to think about). The latter two dominated their divisions for years, beating every man they ever faced, but get in really by virtue of the fact that they are at the extreme ends of the weight scale and therefore can really only beat what is around, i.e. Lewis does not have the option of cutting down to cruiserweight.

Of the fighters of my era (early 90s to present), I would consider Holyfield, Hopkins, Jones and Pacquiao to be de facto ATGs along with Whitaker and Chavez. I would also consider the claims of Azumah Nelson.

 

i'm australian and there's no way in hell tszyu is the best LW of all time.

but this is a good poll.

tszyu's resume really isn't as good as it could have been. that first lost had a lot do with potential 5 star fights - i remember there was a lot of talk around about an oscar-tszyu fight if he had won that....

i have enormous respect for both these guys because they are both genuine people, willing to fight anyone they can earn a fight against, gracious in defeat and happy go lucky characters.

both very good fighters but neither are greats IMO.

 

[quote="TKO";3764391]Somebody like Mayweather, Ricardo Lopez or Lennox Lewis. The former hasn't got as great a list of names as some of the other ATGs, but the way he has for the most part dominated them all (only Castillo, the much bigger DLH and to an extent Hatton and Judah have given him something to think about). The latter two dominated their divisions for years, beating every man they ever faced, but get in really by virtue of the fact that they are at the extreme ends of the weight scale and therefore can really only beat what is around, i.e. Lewis does not have the option of cutting down to cruiserweight.

Of the fighters of my era (early 90s to present), I would consider Holyfield, Hopkins, Jones and Pacquiao to be de facto ATGs along with Whitaker and Chavez. I would also consider the claims of Azumah Nelson.[/quote]

very good post.

i just want to add that saying hatton dominated his division for years was 'watered down' by his association with frank warren though.

nonetheless, hatton has proved (against tszyu and post-warren) that he's a more than deserving champion.

 

I meant Lopez and Lewis dominated their divisions for years, not Hatton. Agree, when Hatton was with Warren he was little more than an upcoming prospect unproven at top level, but since splitting from FW he's been in much better fights.

 

[quote="TKO";3764538]I meant Lopez and Lewis dominated their divisions for years, not Hatton. Agree, when Hatton was with Warren he was little more than an upcoming prospect unproven at top level, but since splitting from FW he's been in much better fights.[/quote]

absolutely.

 

[quote="TKO";3764391]Somebody like Mayweather, Ricardo Lopez or Lennox Lewis. The former hasn't got as great a list of names as some of the other ATGs, but the way he has for the most part dominated them all (only Castillo, the much bigger DLH and to an extent Hatton and Judah have given him something to think about). The latter two dominated their divisions for years, beating every man they ever faced, but get in really by virtue of the fact that they are at the extreme ends of the weight scale and therefore can really only beat what is around, i.e. Lewis does not have the option of cutting down to cruiserweight.

Of the fighters of my era (early 90s to present), I would consider Holyfield, Hopkins, Jones and Pacquiao to be de facto ATGs along with Whitaker and Chavez. I would also consider the claims of Azumah Nelson.[/quote]

PBF, lopez and lewis are not borderline hall of famers...they are legit ATGs..they may not have great resume but they skill level is what put them in the top 50..im asking you who you feel are borderline ATGs...mine is tszyu,toney,wright and tapia...and is so happens that these guys barely miss the top 100 of almost everybody' s list...

i ask you are you feel are borderline ATGs and you replied with names like PBF,lopez and lewis...PBF and Lewis are even legit top 50 in everybody's list miles away form dela hoya, mosley,trinidad and morales...

 

I said they are borderline ATGs, not borderline hall of famers. The standard for one is much higher than the other. The Hall of Fame it seems like anyone who's had a few entertaining fights can go in right now. I agree, the fact that Lopez/Lewis/PBF were for the most part dominant over all their competition is what puts them in. And yes, these are the names I reply with. Because they are the ones who, as per my criteria, have either done something almost unique or simply dominated the sport for a long period. ATG status for me is for the genuine creme de la creme, not just every fighter who manages to make a few defences of a belt.

 

[quote="TKO";3770152]I said they are borderline ATGs, not borderline hall of famers. The standard for one is much higher than the other. The Hall of Fame it seems like anyone who's had a few entertaining fights can go in right now. I agree, the fact that Lopez/Lewis/PBF were for the most part dominant over all their competition is what puts them in. And yes, these are the names I reply with. Because they are the ones who, as per my criteria, have either done something almost unique or simply dominated the sport for a long period. ATG status for me is for the genuine creme de la creme, not just every fighter who manages to make a few defences of a belt.[/quote]


fair enough...how about barrera and morales? do you consider them ATG? most people put PBF and Lewis way ahead of morales, mosley, trinidad, dela hoya and barrera who are somewhere in the 75-90 mark, do you consider them ATG also?