Battle of the HW swarmers: Marciano, Tua, Tyson, Frazier

Tua is getting overated here.
Marciano underated.


I dont see Tua beating the Rock.
Rock and Joe would be a war.
Marciano Tyson could go 2 ways, Tyson blitz Rocky out early, or Marciano later.

 

I dont think that any of these matches are predictable.

Swarmer on swarmer matchups are inherantly unpredictable.

Most people are picking Tyson on the basis that hye is the fastest starter and most dangerous in the early rounds. This is logicaly sound but all these guys are durable and if they are not stopped in the first few rounds the dynamic of the fight shifts against Tyson.

 

Frazier 3-0
Marciano 2-1
Tyson 1-2
Tua 0-3

 

The reason he went down hill was because he had an inept, inexperienced trainer take over, he was encouraged to bulk up, he had a manager who started to think he was the star.
At the time Tyson fought these better boxers which ones do you pick to beat Tua at his best??
Holmes? The Larry Tyson fought wasnt as good as the old comebacking Larry coz he tried to fight how he used to when he wasnt capable of doing so, he changed his style later.
Biggs? Tyrell doesnt have enough on his jab and doesnt throw combinations to keep Tua off.
Thomas? Tyson Thomas was a carcas
Bruno? Bruno would fold as soon as he was hit, again you cant outbox Tua throwing one punch at a time and Bruno did.
Tucker? Maybe but Tua at his best did great bodywork and i see this taking a big toll.

Tua may have been behind at times but it was against tall, big men and bar Lewis and Byrd at pretty much his best he still got the job done. Dont underestimate how much his relentless pressure and rugged bodywork had in him landing a "bomb" as you put it. It happened too many times to be luck. Its called methodic.

The two fights against Byrd and Lewis came at a time when Tua had some well documented out of ring issues and was a very tough time for him. Not to say he wins those fights but they didnt help.

The Ibeabuchi fight was very close and could just as easy have gone to Tua.

As an aside im interested to know how posters think Davids chin compares to Tyson, Frazier and Marciano?

 

Tua signed with Dan Goosen got his paycheck and checked out of boxing. He wasnt encouraged to bulk up. He chose to leave Lou Duva, his fault. He wasnt forced to make 230 anymore, and work like he did in the gym. He wasnt the fastest under 230 and he was pitifully slow at 240+. I watched the guy train like a mule and spar with Golota. He was on the right track.
Tubbs, Holmes, Tucker, Green, Tillis, Biggs all would have had just as good of chance at making to the end bell, as guys like Izon, Rahman, Byrd, and Maskaev did. He was always a one armed fighter, and the movers I listed would have created a lot more problems for Tua, just adding the movement into the mix. Look how easily Lennox Lewis boxed circles around him.
The Ibeabuchi fight was impressive because Ike beat Tua at his own game slugging.
Tyson in his prime was a dynamo. He had excellent movement and defensive countering skills, thats why he was able to have the success against the movers he faced. He also put punches together far better than Tua ever did. Tua was the same crap, lefthook left hook overhand right. He didnt have a big arsenal of punches, something some of the slicker boxers would have easily been able to avoid. Tua did have a good chin though, although he was rocked by Chris Byrd.:hey

 

A 230 pound Tua would have 45 pounds of muscle on Marciano and 26 on Frazier ... he was a murderous puncher and able to go 12 rounds at a fast pace with an iron chin. He took the best bombs of Lennox Lewis ... while he is no where near the pound for pound fighter Marciano or Frazier was I believe he would be a terrible match up for either one. Marciano's main assets were his strength and his power. Tua dwarf's him in both. In addition he was as fast ... Frazier fought for his life against Bonavena twice and Tua was much stronger, busier and harder hitting ...just bad match ups ...

 

Tua doesn't really belong, but I'd go with Tyson. Smokin Joe would finish 2nd, beating Marciano and surviving Tua,Marciano 3rd, Tua 4th but he could pick up a win if he lands early.

 

Frazier beat Bonavena pretty easy the 2nd time around.

Tua isn't quite as good when you see him in person as he looks on paper or debating him. Dueto the fact he had murderous power and a granite chin people like to pick him over a lot of ATGs or fighters ranked above him. Tua never had the intangibles or the ability to adapt to beat elite level fighters imo. He knocked out some good fighters, but most of them came via a single shot where he was getting outboxed or a bit of a fluke (Ruiz) Not saying Tua didn't deserve to beat Ruiz but a 19 second KO is something that is nearly impossible to duplicate.

But even a young Tua struggled mightily with guys like Maskaev who was outboxing him until he landed a big one in the final round. Tua has a shot against anyone and I think he has a solid chance against Frazier/Marciano but he wouldn't be the favorite against either.

 

What I am going to say should not be a surprise I like Marciano to beat them all...Frazier being the toughest battle for Marciano, Marciano has the edge in 2 fisted power and recupritive power. Tyson would lose to Marciano in the HEART and stamina and will departments. Tua has a punchers chance with anyone but it ends there. Tyson looks good on paper but Marciano proved he could get off the floor and win and come back from adversity, tyson could not. Tyson may be a problem for Frazier to get out of the early rds but if the fight goes past 8 Frazier would out heart and stamina him. Tua was a harder punching Bonavena but a little shorter at 5"9 1/2 but he would get banged up with Frazier and Marciano over 12-15 baring a KO blast which he was also suseptible...A PUNCHERS CHANCE IS ALL....I may put Marciano on a pedistal...but he was a tough guy to boxing and a perfect snapshot of a swarmer...Like James Cagney, Pacino and Deniro was as a movie Gangster

 

A few points i disagree with here:
Kevin Barry at the time was interviewed on TV here in NZ saying Tua was on a new strength programme to make him BIGGER and stronger.

Tucker, Smith, Green and Tillis heard the final bell with Tyson too. I dont think the guys on that list Tyson stopped at the time that they fought him last with the best Tua either.

Using Lewis as an example is ludacris, one he is H2H on of the best of all time and two bears no resemblance to Tyson, Frazier or Marciano.

Tua had a limited arsenal? Maybe but it got the job done against all but Lewis and the very best Chris Byrd. As i said Ike fight could have gone either way.

Tyson was very impressive and would be my favourite in a fight with Tua however Tyson wouldnt be the stronger man, May not be the harder hitter or have the better chin. On top of this Tyson liked a bit of space and liked to through combinations but wasnt someone who would work the body consistently. Tua could push, bull Tyson and unleash his body attack which didnt just consist of left hook left hook overhand right.

As for Ike beating Tua at his own game, maybe, it was close, and Ike is 6'2" and 240 ish much bigger than these guys

 

I agree Tua is highly flawed and was not a great fighter ... however in his sweet spot, at his best he was a killer ... watch his fight against Ike which I felt he won ... twelve rounds of war with another killer ... there is a reason there are weight divisions . Tua would have 45 pounds on Marciano in a fight that could be held in a phone booth ... why not match Marciano v.s. Ketchel? Why would everyone choose Marciano over an all time great middleweight? Because of his size and strength ..

 

Knocked out some good fighters, yes including four guys who were titlists, two of whom were linear champions. Outboxed by Maskaev who years later is still floating around the rankings oh he actually won that fight by the way.

Won by fluke?? Ruiz, Moorer, Darrol Wilson all flukes?
Ruiz has been in with most of the top guys of the last 10-12 years and never had that done to him
Wilson was coming off a KO victory of Briggs and had sucked up everything he had in the first couple of rounds
Michael Moorer has never had that done to him.
Sorry but you dont fluke it that often

Its not by chance that he landed the big one late it was the effects of his bodywork and relentlessness that made guys use up energy trying to keep away, you dont get lucky consistently against guys like Izon or titlist Maskaev or linear champion Rahman.

 

I think Tyson beats them all and Frazier beats Tua and Marciano.

 

dempsey belongs also

 

Anyone who could take Tysons punch stands a good chance of beating him. He never had the mental makeup to go a full 12 rounds without having a mental breakdown. Tua can go 12 strong rounds and maintain his incredible power at the end.

I believe Tua would have the best chance to beat Tyson out of the three because Tua hit a bit harder and had a better chin than Tyson. That's not to say that Tyson was weak with a glass jaw, but Tua has had true, one-punch kayos. Tyson got a lot of his knockouts before the fight even started because of his intimidation factor. Tyson was the much better combination puncher, but punch-for-punch, Tua is the bigger hitter. Tyson also had a good chin, but he was hurt on several occasion and has quit in tough fight, and also ko'd.

I think Tua would either stop Tyson, or Tyson would be disqualified.