"Jack better than I ever was"- Jeffries

Nar i can't help there sorry SQ, on a different note, that music in that video was strikingly similar to one of the Vincent Valentine themetunes in Final Fantasy 7, if anyone knows what i'm talking about.

Sorry about that.

 

Think a prime for prime fight(Under the rule set of the day) would have been closer than what relly happen in july 4th 1910.

I still favor Johnson, but with a younger Jim, and in his prime, who knows. I dont think it would have been the one sided beat down that happen.

 

"I was the great white hope, they told me. My pride got the better of my good judgement. Six years ago it would have been different. Now I guess the public will let me alone after this."

 

Questions for an avid boxing fan,Mr SQ.
Do you see what I see ?Jack hurts Ketchel to the body ,Stanley starts to fall ,Jack grabs him and puts him back on his feet.Johnson was quoted by ringsiders as saying "whoa, Stanley where you going ".
Johnson jabs Ketchel when he wants to ,he stated he was shocked how easy to hit the middleweight king was.
Johnson manhandles Ketchel like a doll picking him up,and setting him down where he likes.
WATCH the knockdown of Johnson by Ketchel ,in slow motion.
DID THAT RIGHT HAND LAND?
Jeffries looked reasonably impressive prior to their fight his speed on the bag and calisthenics were about as they had allways been ,but when the fight began ,it was apparent that his vaunted strength and stamina were seriously eroded.Johnson was the master in close , as well as long range and when that became obvious the writing was on the wall for all to see.
If there was a redeeming factor in this fight it would be the stoical way that Jeffries trundled forward into those artful punches ,taking his lumps without a thought of quitting.He had been thought of as a superman ,"the strongest man in the world",now in what was supposed to be his triumphal affirmation of the supremacy of the White race, he was exposed as a hollow shell ,a flabby facsimile of the indestructible mammoth that had kod fighting men , of the legendary status of Corbett and Fitz .
He was beaten in every department save one courage.
"You would have beat him in your prime Jeff"
"No I couldnt have beaten him in a thousand years"

 

The rationale behind Jeffries comment was that Johnson was actually stronger in the clinches than he was. Whether this would be so prime for prime is anyone's guess, but it is quite possible. Saying that though, I thought Jeffries showed enormous heart and there is no way that a prime Jeffries would have slowed as much as he did in their actual fight, if he were in his prime. So, prime for prime, Johnson would have had to keep digging deep, as would Jeffries. Even if Johnson did dominate the going, he is still going to be hit and hurt and need to come back. Can he keep doing this? Choynski, Willard and even some of his other fights seem to hint otherwise, but Johnson was just so good that you never know. In his prime, he never really seemed to take enough punishment to prove his chin and heart. It is also often forgotten that during the fight with Jeffries, Jeffries did still land some solid shots that he shook off without any effect at all. There is no guarantee that prime Jeffries is any more successful. In fact, there is no guarantee that Fitz, Corbett or even Langford or others would actually beat the Jeffries Johnson faced. I am nowhere near as convinced as others are that they would of.

 

I think it's highly improbable. The prime Jeffries studied wrestling extensively, even wrestling a series of competitive exhibitions with the world Greco-Roman champion of the era, Ernest Roeber. Jeffries further trained in "catch", or American submissions wrestling with champion Martin "Farmer" Burns, but Greco-Roman wrestling emphases clinch strength above almost anything.

Why so many people continue to place even a shred of creedence in Jeffries' 1910 performance as a measure of his abilities completely astounds me.

 

Do you really think so? I thought Jeffries looked horrible in the training footage I have from that camp. He's no longer light on his feet, his timing is awful, the wondrous athleticism so prominent in his training footage from the Ruhlin defense is almost completely evaporated.

The first time I saw that pre-Johnson footage I gasped, "yikes". Jeffries looked much worse than I had assumed. I actually gained an enormous amount of respect for his performance vs Johnson, he had almost nothing to offer in the ring except his boundless pride and toughness.

 

Johnson represented a major change in boxing over Jeffries and his crowd both in technique and shifting ruleset. The one guy who was antecedent to Johnson was Corbett, and even a depleted version of Jim gave Jeffries fits. A bigger, stronger, more in his prime version of this type of fighter in Johnson would have always given the crude (and I believe slightly under-powered) Jeffries a major run for his money. Furthermore, as wrestling and mauling was weeded out of the sport, the skillset of a Johnson or Corbett or later Tunney would become more effective.

And in regards to Jeffries 1910 performance as a measure of his abilities, it is no measure. However, I think the game had started to change on him during his absence.

 

wrestling and mauling was not weeded out in 1910. Gans for the most part still had to out wrestling Nelson, and Johnson would still wrestling Jeff in there suppose prime fight fought under the rules of the day.

No breaking up in clichings, and fighting it out was the name of the game.
The weeded out didnt happen until the 1920's.
In 1915, Johnson failed to out wrestling Willard.

 

No rational man can say Jeffries in his prime would not have improved on his lack lustre performance ,but conversely as he would be more of a threat,might Johnson "get down to business" a whole lot earlier and really fight with his whole ability? Because I think he carried Jeffries a few rounds.The Johnson of the Choynsky fight was a skinny 9 fight novice ,and the Johnson of the Willard fight was a 37 year old dissipated flabby imitation of that man in Reno,and still he was in front after 20 rds.Where didnt Johnson show fortitude? He tired from his efforts to stop the giant Willard ,and after 26 rds in tropical heat he succumbed to the younger, fitter ,stronger man.Willard at 226 lbs was in the shape of his life,Johnson had a tire of suet around his hips and buttocks ,he was past it, high living and carousing had robbed him of his talents .Barney Curley the Promoter had set the distance for 45 rds , unrealistic for Havana in April,and certainly for one as gone in condition as Johnson. Still I think Johnson showed great heart and courage ,and fought a good fight for the first 20rds .I dont see any lack of guts in Johnson at all, did he ever look intimidated when faced with a rabidly racist crowd ,such as that one at Reno?Don't forget he had been shot at two nights before going into the ring. Johnson had big balls ,that was half his trouble ,as far as the bigoted white race of the time was concerned.

 

Well, I often wondered how some people on this board (not you Suzie) can say certain fighters fought old men and yet many of them praise Johnson's victory over Jeffries like he did not


1) RETIRE FOR 6 YEARS
2) HAVE NO TUNE -UPS
3) HAVE TO LOSE 100LBS BEFORE THE FIGHT
4) have an advanced age of 36

I too think Johnson had much better skills than Jeffries and was one of the most advanced boxers of the time but should we also judge Johnson on the Willard fight when he has to fight a big strong man with stamina. I think if we are going to rate Johnson high I also think Jeffries should be very close in proximity in the ratings.Jeffries was a strong man and from what I heard (hard to judge with old film) he had a cat like quickness and strength....It has been said that both these men fought smaller men but it is also true that these smaller men were the best of there times. That being said I am not sure how a fight would have played out in there primes but I am completly sure Jeffries would have given a better account of himself much like the fellows below
Dempsey/Tunney
Louis/Marciano
Ali/Holmes
Holmes/Tyson
Tyson/Williams/McBride

 

Johnson fought plenty of young men and big ones too.
The ONLY man Jeffries fought who was over 200lbs was RUhlin 202lbs
Jeffries best wins were over a 5 8 in Sharkey ,a 37 year old Corbett , and a 40 year old Fitz ,ALL OF WHOM he greatly outweighed, thems the facts.
Johnson met young men like Langford Mcvey ,men in their prime like Jeannete,big men like Ross 214lbs,Ferguson 6'3in 215lbs,Martin 6 6in,Cowler 220lbs [when Johnson was 41 years old].No one said Jeffries was in his prime when he fought Johnson,he had ample opportunity to do so ,when he was, but refused to fight him.
You talk about Johnson fighting an old Jeffries yet then mention Johnson losing to Willard when Johnson was 37 ,2 years older than Jeffries was when he came back to fight Johnson.And Johnson was winning the fight up until the 20th round in very humid temperatures fighting a trained to the minute Giant, contrast that with Jeffries underwhelming display against Johnson.
The facts are Jeffries reputation is built on beating men, smaller and considerably older than himself, men past their prime,thats not a slur its a fact.

 

July 5, 1910 Boston Journal:
"I am not a good fighter any longer. I could not come back boys - I couldn't come back. Ask Johnson if he will give me his gloves. I thought it would all come back to me and that I could show all my old form. I truly believed I was fit. If I hadn't believed I could get right this cursed match never would have been made. I had money enough, and was content. But the public wouldn't let me rest in peace. I did the best I could, and so did the men who trained me. I didn't alwaysy take their advice, and this terrible defeat must not be charged up to them."

 

Jeffries was a shell of his former self without question ... Johnson also fought to style ... he fought at his usual leisuely pace ... I think he definately could have stopped this Jeffries much earlier if he chise ...

AS far as a prime Jeffries goes, Johnson cleanly outpoints him but does not stop him ...